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Hello Chrissie & Hilary,

Just popped on to see any more developements, def not him is it, wonder if the Boer War "story" is correct, you would think so.......hard to believe he would have set out for SA.......as opposed to the usual Canada USA etc.

Annx

but look what else Ancestry has, his service record

No 854
Newby John Wm
3 Belmont Yard
Hoyland (Ancestry has transcribed it as Hayland)
35 years 342 days on 10th day of March 1915 at Barnsley
occupaton miner
married
never served in any branch of His Majesty's forces ??

wife's name Florence Annie Stacey
formerly Stacey? hard to read
married Sheffield 4th June 1900

six children

so it doesn't look like this is the same person as JWJ

this one matches the age at enlistment

Births Jun 1879
Newby John William Darlington 10a 26

I am one who has Ancestry, if Hilary wants to send me an email address by personal message I can save the medal card image from Ancestry and send it to her by email.

I had a look ... it says he enlisted 10.3.15 and was discharged 5.6.17

it also says cause of discharge

0.0.265 off 1)
20.1

is I think what it says but I don't know how to interpret that

the medals are the standard ones

Victory
British

A maybe for a medal card, same reg as the Boer War chappie.

This is from the National Archives which you can download for £2.00 It details medals awarded.

?????????????


Image details

Description Medal card of Newby, John William
Corps Regiment No Rank
York and Lancaster Regiment 14/854 Private

Date 1914-1920
Catalogue reference WO 372/14
Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War
Piece Mill J - Nolan P
Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection


Number of image files: 1


Image Reference Format and Version Part Number Size (KB) Number of Pages Price (£)

Just thinking...........have you asked for a search WW1 ancestry (I do not have access) It may be the case that having been a former serving soldier he would have passed into the reserves with the possibility of being re-called........worth a try.......though not sure how that would have worked with him being in SA.

Annx

Thank you all so much for your wonderful help - this has really got me on the road to finding out so much more about my Pop!

Hilary

Well, in all times and places there have been independent girls, and abused and exploited girls, too, we'll never know what was the case for most of our female ancestors who were in this situation, I fear! Was my great granny who was a housemaid in the 1800s in love with the young master or did she have to endure his unwanted attentions to keep her job? She kept her daughter and lost her job it seems.

If you find that the documents you want in SA are not held by an archive as obliging as the one I encountered then what they will do is recommend private researchers in SA who will get copies for you.

I really do recommend trying Kew for his early military records because it will tell you where he enrolled, who his next of kin was and their address, what his occupation was, what his birthdate was ............ at least the one record I got did say all that.

Thanks for the info Chrissie this is going to be so helpful to me- when you said you had a rellie I thought you meant it was JWJ!

I live in the UK so the internet is my best bet for gathering info although I will perhaps try to get copies as you did.

It looks as if Nellie was a naughty girl doesn't it!!

Hilary if you want to investigate getting JWJ's military records in England you can send me a private message and I can recommend a private researcher, as I say, that may be your best and maybe only course for finding information about JWJ's age, family, address etc.

I think Nellie went to SA when she found herself pregnant, because her brother Harry had already emigrated there with his wife Connie - perhaps some moral support at a time when naughty pregnancies were not the done thing! Dont know why she came back to England though and returned again so quickly - this was a long voyage by ship (about 3 weeks I think) so to do that 3 times within 12 months there must have been a pretty big reason

me? heavens no ! We just both have rellies who stayed in SA after that war, mine was a distant rellie I had just been very curious to know what happened to, and once I confirmed that he stayed in SA I did manage to find some of his descendants born there.

You can get copies of all those records from the various archives that hold them in SA ..... is that where you live? if so it will be a lot easier for you than it was for me, lol

although I had tremendous good luck, one of the archives I wrote to, to ask how to get copies, said well if you give us your postal address we will send them to you !

if you look around the SA national archives site it will tell you what various things mean like KAB in your dad's adoption record, to tell you where the document is held

I guess that means that once JWJ sorted out his marital woes he and Nellie probably did marry and he adopted Len.

So Nellie went out May 1927, coming back into Uk Dec 1927 then returning with a 1 year old Len in June 1928?????

Food for thought??

Was nellie already pregnant?
Had JWJ been in the UK?

Annx

Chrissie - does this mean we are related by marriage?
Hilary

YES YES YES - This is definitely my dad - my mum used to say she thought there was a skeleton here, and now you have confirmed it for me

Hilary, does this relate to your Len ?

DEPOT KAB
SR/SN 000/00
SOURCE 1/CT
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 349
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 18/41
PART 1
DESCRIPTION
ADOPTION OF CHILDREN TOMMIS , LEONARD ALLAN MELLOR
STARTING 1941
ENDING 1941

a search of the SA national archives site for hilda + harriet + newby reveals that they had some ongoing marital problems

it seems like maybe she sued for divorce and he countersued for restitution of conjugal rights



DEPOT KAB
SOURCE CSC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/1/1/949
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 391
PART 1

DESCRIPTION
ILLIQUID CASE. DIVORCE.
HILDA HARRIET NEWBY, BORN KITCHENHAM
VERSUS
JOHN WILLIAM JOSEPH ALAN NEWBY.

STARTING 19220000
ENDING 19220000


those two records were both in 1922

and then in 1935 it was still going on ?


DEPOT KAB
SOURCE CSC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/1/1/1276
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 257
PART 1

DESCRIPTION
ILLIQUID CASE. RESTITUTION OF CONJUGAL RIGHTS.
JOHN WILLIAM JOSEPH NEWBY
VERSUS
HILDA HARRIET NEWBY, (BORN KITCHENHAM).

STARTING 19350000
ENDING 19350000



does it seem that maybe he and Nellie weren't married, and perhaps she was surprised to find he already was?


oops you slipped in there Ann, yes indeed, lol.

Well done Chrissie! I have been going ga ga with this one, was just going to post regarding Len being a Tommis, guess we know now.

Annx

this could help find records if there are any ... not bmds, but other kinds of records

http://www.national.archives.gov.za/index.htm

SA national archives

Search National Automated Archival Information Retrieval System

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300dl

RSA - All Archives Repositories and National Registers of non-public records

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300gi?20110205000643B9743D05%26DB%3DRSAE

(and there are other archives)


oh look what I have found

DEPOT KAB
SOURCE CSC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/1/1/930
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 77
PART 1

DESCRIPTION
ILLIQUID CASE. RESTITUTION OF CONJUGAL RIGHTS.
JOHN WILLIAM JOSEPH ALLEN NEWBY <<<<
VERSUS
HILDA HARRIET NEWBY, BORN KITCHENHAM.

STARTING 19220000
ENDING 19220000


his name ???


also, his military records may be at Kew

I suspected that a relation of mine had stayed in SA after I found his name in the Imperial yeomanry for the Anglo-Boer war, and I found one document about him in the SA national archives and also a search at Kew for me found his military records which gave address, next of kin and so on

You're welcome Hilary. Sorry I can't be of more help though.

The only thing is, if she went to SA in May 1927 and returned to UK in Dec 1927 with a baby, she must have been pregnant when she went over.

Liz

OMG alviegal - yes this is definitely Nellie and my dad Len - had no idea that they had come back to England THANK YOU SO MUCH!