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I too am beginning to think that Austin and Joseph C. are 2 different people.... which explains the 2 birthdates

I know Martha had a daughter Queenie, but as there was no Victoria in census 1911, but there was an Amy of right age and birthplace, and Lillie also of right age and birthplace, I wondered if Queenie was a nickname or diminutive for Victoria, and subsequent googling showed this was common practice.

Whether a father would have given the 'same' name to a child from his first marriage and his second I don't know - though it did happen in my own family. My 3 x gt grandfather used the names of two children from his first union for children from his second , probably bigamous union.

So if the same man 'married' both Lilly and Martha, there may well be two 'Queenies' of different ages.

From the marriage cert to Martha, can you tell us the father's names and occupations please

Queenie from 'second' marriage:


Birth: Births Dec 1912 (>99%)
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Britton Queenie M Aitkin Prescot 8b 1524

This looks like Queenie, so not Victoria ( but good thinking !)


Births Dec 1912 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Britton Queenie M - Aitkin - Prescot 8b 1524

Great minds think alike !

Arthur also born after census 1911:

Births Sep 1915 (>99%)
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Britton Arthur E Aitken Prescot 8b 1414


So if the same man, one child called Victoria possibly nicknamed Queenie as a child, and child from second marriage called Queenie (also with second initial 'M').

Still no convinced we're dealing with one man, having trouble finding second family in 1911.

Other children from second marriage in case they're easier to find in 1911


Britton Olive Violet Prescot 8b 810 AMJ 1907


Britton Norman Austin Prescot 8b 720 OND 1908

Can find neither Austin Britton nor Joseph C Britton in the births

Got them!!!! In 1911 that is. And Austin is an electric tram driver same as Joseph in 1901:

However completely different birthplace

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BRITTON, Austin Head Married M 38 1873 Electric Tram Driver Oxted Surrey
BRITTON, Martha Ann Wife Married 4 years F 33 1878 St Helens Lancs
BRITTON, Norman Austin Son M 2 1909 St Helens Lancs
AITKEN, Elizabeth Mother In Law Widow F 66 1845 Monkwearmouth Durham

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Registration District:
Prescot Sub District:
St Helens Enumeration District:
15 Parish:
St Helens

Address:
167 Westfield St St Helens

Two children born of the marriage, one deceased.

Deaths Dec 1907 (>99%)
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Britton Olive Violet 0 Prescot 8b 531

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Re finding Austin and or Austin Joseph in the births, it's probably one of those surnames that gets spelt differently every time, especially earlier on.

Frustrating though!

We need to know the details from the marriage certificate that the poster already has.

There is no entry for an Austin Britton on 1881 census.

Mike has the right Austin Joseph, he died in 1943. He also has the correct birth of Victoria Mabel and her marriage to Wyles.

Kucinta has the correct Joseph Charles born 1865.

I have Austin Josephs records from marriage in 1906 to Martha onwards to his death. I have a clock presented to him on his retirement from the S. Lancs regiment in 1916 ( he was RSM A J Britton), I have his medals card from WW1 showing his regiments and I have his signing up document for WW1 showing previous membership of 4099 West Riding Regiment and his wife as Martha Ann, I have his medals from WW1 and the Boer War. Cannot find service record from Boer War under AJ Britton. Cannot find signing up document for Boer War under AJ Britton.

I have signing up document for West Riding Regiment as Joseph Britton, where his wife is stated as Lillie Britton. He "vanished" from W Riding regiment in 1905 and his wife (Lillie) was informed that the army could not trace him.

Can find no trace of AJ Britton prior to 1906. Can find no trace of Joseph Charles after 1905.

Is this one and the same person or did AJ assume someone else's identity?

Thanks for all the help given so far.

So do you think we've found 'widow' Lillie in 1911, with another child, Doris, born c1902?

Mike found a marriage and children for Victoria, but you'd have to buy marriage certs to sort out the possible marriages for Amy and Doris if you want to trace them.

What details did Austin give re his father on his marriage cert to Martha?

It would be great to have all the info - just in case we can tie it to Joseph C's background at all.

I think Mike's marriage of Joseph and Lillie looks likely, have you considered investing in the cert and comparing the info on both marriage certs to see if there are any links?

Of course if Joseph/Austin had done a runner, he might have fabricated a past history for himself once with Martha, making the truth even harder to ascertain.

The link that makes me think we are talking about one individual is that they both belonged to the 4099 West Riding Regiment at the same time. This regiment fought at the second battle of Kimberley. I have a medal with clasp to show that J Britton was at the battle of Kimberley. J Britton's signing up document to West Riding Regiment shows him to be born 1865 in Leeds, with a wife Lillie Britton. Austin's WW1 signing up document shows him having been in 4099 W Riding Reg and with a wife Martha. 1911 Census shows Austin born Oxted Surrey, as does his signing up form for WW1. I cannot find a birth certificate or any record of AJ Britton prior to 1906. J Brittons War papers show him absent with trace in 1905 and Lillie was advised accordingly. I can find no trace of JC Britton after 1905.

Is it possible that JC went AWOL and re-invented himself as AJ?

The marriage certificate for AJ shows him to be 33 in 1906, therefore born 1973. His father was Joseph Britton deceased, a Brewer.

The alternative is perhaps that AJ was adopted, having been born in Oxted to parents of a different name. Which would means JC was no relation and just went AWOL in 1905.

I have a presentation clock from South Lancs Regiment for retirement of RSM A J Britton, I have his medals for Boer War and for WW1. The only Britton I can find that remotely matches for Boer War is J Britton b. 1865.

Did JC go AWOL and turn into AJ to disguise his identity? Don't know in that case where he got Oxted from in 1911 Census and WW1 signing up form.



I don't know how to proceed from here, hence the call for help.

Yes, I do think it possible that JC went missing and reinvented himself as AJ.

I would be tempted to get the marriage cert for the ref Michael posted for Lillie Kirkley and JC, see if his father is Joseph, brewer, on that. If it was, I think it would be pretty conclusive, together with the amount of circumstantial evidence you have already built up, and you could then try tracing both Josephs - ie JC and dad.

Out of interest, what was Queenie 1912's second forename? Don't suppose it was Mabel?

I have 2 marriages for Victoria and will certainly follow the leads on the children.

I do so much appreciate all the help you have given and am astonished that you have come up with so much so quickly. I only wish I had started the hunt with Genes Reunited and this facility, it would have saved so much time. However, your help has been invaluable, your thoughts/suspicions/information is amazing in its quantity and quality. I can never thank you enough.

Will keep you informed of further findings. If I can given you further information, just tell me what you need and if I have it, its yours.

Once again, thank you.

I have 2 marriages for Victoria and will certainly follow the leads on the children.

I do so much appreciate all the help you have given and am astonished that you have come up with so much so quickly. I only wish I had started the hunt with Genes Reunited and this facility, it would have saved so much time. However, your help has been invaluable, your thoughts/suspicions/information is amazing in its quantity and quality. I can never thank you enough.

Will keep you informed of further findings. If I can given you further information, just tell me what you need and if I have it, its yours.

Once again, thank you.