Find Ancestors

I am trying to find my grandmother, Doris Florence, who was born on August 17th 1906, her sister Mabel who was born on 10th August(?) 1905 and her brother Frederick James Alexander who was born on September 11th 1907. The only problem is that I don't know what their surname was as they seem to be born "out of wedlock" to possibly 2 different fathers and they don't seem to be registered under their mother's maiden name of Harris (Josephine Martha Harris, born 1887, Whitechapel I think). Therefore I cannot find them in any of the censuses. Their mother married in 1911 and the husband took them all on and they changed their surnames to Mott which was his name, which is the only name any of the family know.
Very confusing, but is there any way I can find out their original surnames?

Thanks,
Melissa

Here's Josephine in 1911.. No children with her


Name: Relationship to head: Marital Status: Years married: Sex: Age in 1911: Occupation: Where born:
PURKISS, WILLIAM HEAD MARRIED M 58 CAB DRIVER HILDERSHAM CAMBS
PURKISS, SARAH WIFE MARRIED 34 F 59 MILDEN HALL SUFFOLK
HARRIS, JOSEPHINE MARTHA BOARDER SINGLE F 24 WAITRESS LONDON WHITECHAPEL


HARRIS JOSEPHINE MARTHA (RG14PN172 RG78PN6 RD2 SD3 ED8 SN230)
Address 295 LADBROKE GROVE NORTH KENSINGTON W County London
District Kensington Subdistrict Kensington North
Enumeration District 8 Parish Kensington

Thank you, yes I have found that, and all records for her parents Abraham and Esther Harris, and her siblings Alexander, Florence and Bertha - but nothing for the children. It was never talked about by my nana and her siblings so no one knows what happened before 1911 when she married Robert Mott and they became Motts....
can someone just not exist??

Have you found her parents & siblings in 1911?

I'm not sure about Abraham, but have found all three of Josephine's siblings in1911 and none of them have their nieces and nephew living with them. I think her mother had already dies having possibly remarried a frederick wedgerfield?

Where did you get the actual DOB's from for Josephines children please?

x

it's just what we have always been told - I asked my mum and my aunts and those are the dates they came back with. I appreciate they may be incorrect as everything else seems to be a family secret!
I do have the birth record for the youngest sister, Bertha, who was Mott's child, born October 22nd 1911 - 6 months after Mott and Josephine Harris were married!

Have you Doris Florence's marriage cert? I wonder if that has her birth surname on?

I cannot find a birth for Josephine in Whitechapel or find her on the 1901 census with the info you gave and the only Abraham and Esther i can find are in that part of the country is this one

Name: Abraham Harris
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Esther Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: Konin Palish Subject

Civil Parish: Woodville
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Charlton
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members: Name Age
Abraham Harris 40
Esther Harris 38
Joseph Harris 18
Sarah Harris 16
Harriet Harris 14
Amelia Harris 12
Rachel Harris 10
Dora Harris 8
Sophia Harris 6
Bertha Harris 4
Leah Harris 1
Morris Segal 30

I think you would need to buy her marriage cert to confirm her details and if she was married befor? as that would explain not being able to find a surname

marriage details
Name: Josephine M Harris
Year of Registration: 1911
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Kensington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 420

Roy

Births Jun 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harris Josephine Mile End 1c 471

There is a Frederick James A,reg Dec 1907 1a--113 .Southwark, has the surname,

HOSKINS.

now we are getting somewhere, so she was born in stepney
and her first name is Josephena
1891
Name: Josephena M Harris
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Abraham Harris born: Poland
Mother's name: Esther Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Stepney, London, England

Civil Parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Blackburn
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Blackburn
Sub-registration district: Blackburn Northern
ED, institution, or vessel: 46
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Abraham Harris 31
Esther Harris 25
Alexander C Harris 6
Josephena M Harris 4
Florence A Harris 2
Bertha Harris 5/12

Roy

Did either Doris or Mabel marry? Do you know that surname? Or the first names of their husbands?

Ozi

Rose - Doris' marriage cert has her down as Mott, I think he may have adopted them all as they would only have been about 6,5 and 4 in 1911 when Josephine married Robert. It still doesn't explain where they were in 1911!
Porkie Pie - I was unable to find her in the 1901 census too, would that mean she was abroad? Surely unlikely for a girl of 14? I would have thought that being married at 14 would be unlikely too, even in 1901? Those are the correct marriage details though and I have sent off for her marriage cert (last night!)

Back up a minute - Kay?????
I will have to check that, thank you for the clue, I am very excited....!

I was trying earlier to find a Doris Florence birth ( incidentally my mother's names lol)



Births Jun 1906 (>99%)

Cade Doris Florence Edmonton 3a 676 ?CALLOW Doris Florence Edmonton 3a 488 ?Dean Doris Florence M Islington 1b 191 ?Prestidge Doris Florence Hackney 1b 407 ?PRIDGETT Doris Florence C Islington 1b 296 ?

Births Sep 1906 (>99%)

Elgar Doris Florence Hackney 1b 505
Godby Doris Florence Hendon 3a 334
Hedges Doris Florence M Hendon 3a 252
Jordan Doris Florence Edmonton 3a 566
Morgan Doris Florence Brentford 3a 223
PEARCE Doris Florence Hackney 1b 511

'might' be worth trying to eliminate them on the 1911?

Think his name was

Fredrick James Arthur Hoskins,!Melissa
-------------------------------------------------------

bn 1907 Alexander Fredrick James Plummer?

bn 1908 Fredrick James HARRIS,,1911 hes in West Ham

If anyone has subs to FMP..they can use this against the original 1911census.co.uk site and it allows just a christian name search.

Could someone look at this one?

HOUSEHOLD HARRIS DORIS F 1906 5 Kensington London

given that Josephine was in Kensingtom and married R Mott there?

I dont have full 1911 either

Frederick James Harrison 1906
living West Ham

Possibly with
Josiah Walter Harrison 1879
Clara 1883
Elebeth Maud 1905
Walter Ernest 1909

Melissa, if Josephine was born 1887 and her first child was born 1905 that would make her 18 years old when the child was born and not 14 yrs although it is unlikeley she would be married at 14 years, the legal age for girls to get married was 12 yrs

still think the marriage cert is your best bet

Roy