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I am trying to find any information on Frances Lloyd (or Loyd) supposedly born in Penzance, Cornwall, c.1933-1835. She immigrated to South Australia on the ship Deborah (or Debra) (or Debro) in 1852, but unfortunately, there is no passenger list. Also, cannot find marriage to William Richard Manley Dawes, b.18.8.1931, Poplar, London, as well as, cannot find birth records of their two eldest children, Emily being my g.grandmother.

Victor - are we looking for Australian records? If so, it may be best to include Austalia in the title.

Also W R M Dawes - was he the husband of Frances, or is that a seperate query? As you have made an error with the yob of Frances (1933-1835), should the dob for William be 1931 or 1831?

Easily done, but could you clarify please? Thank you

:-)
DET

Was Frances married before she went to Australia?

???????1841

ONLY Richard born in County

Name: Frances Loyd
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Gender: Female

Civil Parish: Poplar
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frances Loyd 30
Frances Loyd 12
Thomas Loyd 11
Richard Loyd 2

Thank you Flick. I assumed that the Lloyd's lived in London, and that Penzance, Cornwall, was perhaps only a holiday/escape location.
Yes, I did mean 1831 and not 1931, for William Richard Manley Dawes, and yes, he was Frances husband, but the researchers here in Australia have been unable to find a marriage record in Australia or England.
That wasn't a mistake for Frances birth date - her headstone in St. Georges Cemetery, Gawler, South Australia, confuses the fact of whether she was born in 1833 or 1835.
And for your question on whether Frances was married before she came to Australia - we do not know!
Thank you again,
Cheers,

Victor3

Only the SERIOUSLY wealthy had holidays in the early 19th century........the concept was unknown to the masses

The info I posted for 1841 shows that only RICHARD (the youngest) was born in Middlesex.....as I stated at the time of posting. So all other family members were born in a different county - or counties.

1851 for the family (except for daughter) as per 1841

Name: Frances Lloyd
Age: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Portsea, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Poplar
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 57
Household Members: Name Age
Frances Lloyd 41 Widow
Thomas Lloyd 20
Richard Lloyd 16
George Lloyd 8

Have you traced William's entry into Australia?

This is what DET referred to........

"Penzance, Cornwall, c.1933-1835"

We believe he and Frances arrived on the ship "Deborah" in 1852. There is no mention of him. The passenger list into Port Adelaide does not exist. The passenger list into Melbourne mentions a William DAVIES 22 yrs. This could be him?? - mispelt?

Do you know approximately when Emily was born?

I wonder about this one:

Births Mar 1849
DAWS Emily W Ham 12 323

Poplar and West Ham are very close.

You should not expect to find consistent spelling of surnames at that time. Also, when people emigrated and there was no one around who knew how their names were spelled, a spelling often got assigned that wasn't the same as the spelling back home. (That's how a friend of mine's family in the Kentucky area became Marcum in the 1600s -- having been Markham in England. ;) )

It's also always possible that either Frances or William was married to someone else, before leaving for Australia.

I agree that I wouldn't discount the Davies as a mistranscription of Dawes -- is it possible to view the original image of that record? I found a Jarvis mistranscribed as Davies the other day. ;)

This person in 1851 matches the details for Frances Jr in 1851:

Name: Frances Sarah Moore
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Robert John Moore
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Landport, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Poplar

Robert John Moore 29 - shipwright
Frances Sarah Moore 22
John Muckle 23


Marriages Sep 1846
Lloyd Frances Sarah Greenwich 5 280
Moore Robert John Greenwich 5 280


They aren't in the 1861 census that I can see. If that were Frances, she could have emigrated as a married woman with her husband.

Knowing approximate dates for the eldest children of Frances and William Dawes could help here. Oh, and the other one's name ... Giving detailed info is the best way to get help!

Hi Janey Canuck

Emily died 26.7.1910 and she was supposedly 46 yrs. old. = 1864. But seem her mother, Frances, altered her age, for what ever reason, perhaps we shouldn't take what is on her headstone as being correct. I would accept 1859, but 1849 seems unlikely. It has alway been assumed Emily was born here in Australia, but her birth not registered.
Funny you should say that Frances or William could have been married to someone else - the story goes (in the Family) that Frances was supposed to marry William's brother! Elder brother ??
Regarding the 'Moore' theory, I will have to research the South Australian Passenger lists. They are online, so I will get back to you later, on that one!
Thank you,
You are most helpful!
victor3

Hi Janey Canuck

Researched SA Passenger lists for Frances Moore and Robert Moore - no results.
However, researched deaths FreeBMD and found one for Robert Moore @ Greenwich
1851. So if this was Frances first husband, she was a widow when you immigrated to South Australia, OR, William Richard Manley Dawes had married her, OR, she travelled under her Maiden name, and they may or may not have got married in Australia when they embarked ??? As there is no passenger list on arrival at Port Adelaide, we may never know. Unless the passenger list on arrival in Victoria can shed some light!?

Well, Victor, if you'd given us that info (Emily's year and place of birth) to start with, I wouldn't have been hunting for the birth as I did!

If there's anything to the family story, possibly Frances and William hightailed it to Australia when she changed her mind about the brother.

Hi JaneyCanuck
Sorry! But I think my info is incorrect. I have researched your line of research, and I have come to the conclusion, that it is the correct line. My g.g.grandmother Frances seems to have told a lot of 'porkys' - for whatever reason, I cannot fathom!
I have passed your info onto other researchers here in Australia, so they can add their input!
Thank you again,
Victor3

2 private trees on ancestry
for Richard Manley Dawes

What's all this then?!

What line of research -- which bits of what I posted?

I love my theories, but they're always just offered as possibilities to explore. ;)

Are you meaning the Frances Sarah Lloyd + Robert John Moore bit??

Share!

If it's Lloyd + Moore, certainly you need that marriage certificate for starters.

Frances Sr has no husband in 1841 or 1851 -- but has an 8-yr-old child in 1851.

Son Richard's age varies so much it's impossible to guess at a birth for him. But since the household ws in Poplar in 41 and 51, this is the only birth that fits for son George.

Births Dec 1842
Lloyd George Henry Poplar 2 311

Now, who knows whom Frances Sr might have stated as his father?

But it would be interesting to see. Just in case it matched the father on Frances Sarah Lloyd's marriage certificate. Widows certainly did name their deceased husbands as their children's fathers. ;) It's also possible that the husband was living in 1841, and on a vessel, for instance.

There are 6 Lloyd deaths in Poplar 1841-1851 ... 3 Thomas-s and 3 William-s ...

*If* these are your people, of course.

I also meant to say: I think Cornwall, and Penzance in particular, were very familiar place names in Australa. Portsea/Landport may have been less so. Penzance may have been a convenient answer to the question of where born.

Btw, the 1851 census for this Lloyd household:

Frances Lloyd 41 Widow - born Portsea
> Thomas Lloyd 20 - born Landport, Surrey - shipwright
Richard Lloyd 16 - born Poplar
George Lloyd 8 - born Poplar

The two others Ancestry has crammed into their household are apparently unrelated "inmates" (?) , a shipwright and a mariner. Poplar was a docks area. So Frances's husband may well have been on vessels. Portsea was of course another seagoing locale.


Landport/Portsea:

http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=20336

Yes! Lloyd/Moore is what I meant. Everything seems to fall into place, whereas I only hit brick walls before your help. Thank you.
One of WRM Dawes professions he undertook in South Australia (he had many), was Captain of a ship, shipping ore out of Port Wakefield, to Port Adelaide (I think). Just local trade anyway. So the Moore's and Dawes were probably neighbours/acquaintances working in the same profession.
Yes, I assumed that Robert Moore was alive in 1841 (out to sea), in fact, I found a death record for him in Jun Qtr 1851 (Vol.5 Page 1[16]7). What month of the year was the 1851 Census taken?
By the way, our Passenger Lists online for South Australia, are crap, to say the least! Is there a reliable source in England of passengers leaving your shores? The ship in question is "Deborah". Both WRM Dawes (1851/2) and Frances Lloyd/Moore were supposed to have travelled to South Aust. on this ship, Frances a few years later (c1853) ???
This is fun!