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Oh clever you Helen. That may be why he was in an orphanage.

Have to go to bed now but looking forward to any more developments and trying to help:)

that explains him going to live with the sisters of mercy then is there any way of finding any records of were he was with the sisters of mercy . julie

This is the one likely-looking person in 1901:

Name: Mary Gordon
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relationship: Head
Where born: Arbroath, Forfar
Address: 48 High St
Occupation: Housekeeper

Registration district: Arbroath
Civil Parish: Arbroath

Mary Gordon 40
Alexander Gordon 15
George Gordon 10
Lizzie Gordon 2
Lizzie Steven 42 - sister (Steven could be married name)
Town: Arbroath
County: Angus


Hard tracking these people. I think this is George and Mary's sister Lizzie, in 1891:

Name: George S Gordon
Age: 7 Days
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relationship: Son
Father's name: David B Duncan
Mother's name: Jane A Duncan
Where born: St Vigeans, Forfar Shire
- if he's their son, why is his name Gordon? Can't view the image at Ancestry.

Civil Parish: Arbroath and St Vigeans

David B Duncan 44
Jane A Duncan 38
Isabella D Duncan 13
Jessie S Duncan 11
Susan B Duncan 7
George S Gordon 7 Days
Elizabeth Steven 34 - sister (of Jane?)
Elizabeth R Steven 60 - mother (of Jane?)

Since Mary O'Neil / Gordon was married to Charles Kelly in 1899 in Edinburgh, I don't think the Mary Gordon in the 1901 census can be the same person.

Janey, can you see a record for Charles and Mary Kelly (c.1862) anywhere in Scotland. I agree with you they may have come from Ireland and this census might verify that if it can be found.


* I've found a marriage for a Mary O'Neil to Robert Gordon in 1883 Arbroath, Angus. This looks like it could be the Mary in the census details you sent on. But how could it be ... if 'our' Mary O'Neil / Gordon married Kelly two years before in 1899.

This is the only marriage coming up for the likely dates Mary could have been married prior to marrying Charles Kelly.

I have had a reply from Scotlands people and they are going to arrange for the birth cert to be rescanned and then e-mail me a copy.

Now - I know you'll all think I'm mad but , although I haven't got any Scottish ancestry myself, it fascinates me. Especially being able to look at certificates straight away and all that detail. So occasionally I have a few credits to look for friends and I have a few left from helping a friend recently. To cut a long story short I have downloaded the marriage.

1899 in the district of St Andrew - Edinburgh

21st March 1899 at 8, Royal Crescent Edinburgh-after banns-The Church of Scotland
Charles Kelly - Masons Labourer - Bachelor - aged 42 - Living at 23 Albert Street Edinburgh
To Mary Ann O'Neil or Gordon - widow - aged 39 - Living at the same address.

HIS parents - William Kelly - Plumber and gasfitter - and Mary Kelly - MS Docherty
HER parents - Charles O'Neil - General Labourer (Deceased) and Alice O'Neill M.S. A. Lean (I wonder if that should be McLean?)

Chris

In Scotland in 1871 this is the only Mary A I can find with parents Charles and (I imagine a mistranscription) for Alice -

Name: Mary Oneil
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relationship: Daughter
Father's name: Charles Oneil
Mother's name: Alles Oneil
Gender: Female
Where born: Dundee, Forfar Shire
Registration Number: 282/4
Registration district: St Andrew
Civil Parish: St Andrew
Town: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: Union Street
Occupation: Mill Worker
ED: 18
Household schedule number: 10/2
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1871_52
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Oneil 51
Alles Oneil 50
Therese McGure 23
Elizabeth Oneil 21
Annie Oneil 13
Mary Oneil 11
Charles Oneil 9
James McQuir 2
Betsy McQuir 9 MO

Following on from the marriage info Christine sent. Agree with you Christine, the Scottish certificates hold a good deal of extra information which helps towards matching up family connections.

Looks like the family. With Mary being born in 1860.

Father: Charles Oneil,
Mother: Alice Mclean

Children:

1. CHARLES O'NEIL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 19 JUL 1862 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. ANN O'NEIL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 23 APR 1858 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
3. MARY O NEIL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 29 APR 1860 Dundee, Angus, Scotland


1871 census looking to be correct.

A wee bit of added interest concerning the McGuire family living with the O'Neil's in the 1871 census ... may be another family connection.

Father: Bernard Mcguire,
Mother: Therese O'Neil

1. BETSY MCGUIRE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 25 JUN 1870 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. JAMES MCGUIRE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 18 OCT 1868 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
3. CHARLES MCGUIRE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 25 JUN 1870 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
4. MARY MCGUIRE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 27 OCT 1872 Dundee, Angus, Scotland

Charles Kelly is another thing entirely. I can't find a marriage for his parents and I have a sneaking suspicion that he may have been born in Ireland. There are so many possible Charles Kellys', some born in Ireland, some Scotland, but nothing that shouts out at the moment on a census.

Yes Helen, that sounds right as Theresa McGuire is listed as daughter.

Father: Charles Kelly
Mother: Mary Docherty

CHARLES KELLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 04 AUG 1855 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

May not be 'the' Charles Kelly of course.

I have just had a Google and I am even more convinced that Charles Kelly possibly came from Ireland, as the Sisters of Mercy are Catholic and one link that came up told of a laundry that they helped to set up with other orders for Irish ladies.

You could try contacting the sisters of Mercy Julie and explain what you are looking for. I have come up with this -

Convent of Mercy, 62 Hill Street, GLASGOW. G3 6RH. Their website is www.sistersofmercyunion.org.uk and the e-mail address is [email protected]. They might be able to help.

Or these two which are associates of the Sisters of Mercy -

Scotland - Elgin Sr Oliver Kehoe
Link:J.Rose 01343 547806 [email protected]

Scotland - Glasgow Sr Annette McCartan
Link:Marilyn Leich 01413 320895> [email protected] or [email protected]

Chris

Oh Helen - that looks a very good bet. I wonder if the parents married before registration as they didn't come up on a search on Scotlands people. The only couple with those names were half way through the 1900's

Got to go now. Looking forward to hearing what Julie thinks.

The Sisters of Mercy were indeed an Irish order. And they have actually been in very deep hot water for many years over their "laundries" -- the Magdalene laundries, movies have been made. They were where unfortunate young women were sent and badly mistreated. So I'm not having difficulty believing that young Neil thought it best to run away, not at all.

I almost wondered whether Neil might have been sent to an institution in Ireland, but likely not, since he ended up in Wales. But the fact that it's an RC order and the parents' names sounding very Irish indeed does suggest that's where they were from.

Sorry about the confusion for the 1891 census -- I'd somehow thought I'd read that the marriage didn't actually take place until after Neil's birth although they reported married when Neil was born.

The Mcguire sounds right as today i have spoke to a old family member all they new neil kelly said he had a brother called james Mcguire thank you for all your help julie

Hi Julie
After reading your reply I am a bit concerned that you have misunderstood some of the posts. If the O'Neill family is the right one it would mean that MARY had a nephew called James McGuire. Nothing to do with Neil until he married Mary and then he would have been a nephew in law.

If there is anything that you don't understand please come back and ask us.

Chris

hi christine i think neil kelly had a younger brother called james mcguire kelly thats what i have been told so i woder if she named him after her sisters son hope to hear from you soon julie.

Sorry Julie - ignore me - I was rushing and tied myself in knots!!
Chris

i just hope i am right i have never been so exited julie

I have just received a newly scanned copy of the birth cert of Neil from Scotlands people. His birth date is actually the 12th July 1903 (not 20th) and the address where born is 26 East Mill Yard, Arbroath.

p.s. You did see the marriage details that I posted for his parents marriage too didn't you Julie?
p.p.s. Are you going to contact the sisters of mercy on those links? They may keep records.

iiwill never be able to thank you enough for this ithank you from the bottom of my heart could you please tell me how to get itouch with the sisters of mercy again please yours julie