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That was with 20% discount as I had subscribed before, would'nt mind so much if I spent time doing my own tree lol

jax

its a bit frustrating when you are almost there.
I am wondering if I have found the right Phoebe as I have found several that might be the same person

the annoying part is I have her with william, mervyn with the right dates with her as 1889 and a birth record for 1889 sept
but another record for the same address shows her as 1890 but as phebey with birth as 1890
so I think it is the same person

what I have is:

correct enrty
1911 census
Household RICHARDS, Phoebe M 1889 age 22 Bridgend Glamorganshire
------------------------------------------------------------------
unsure of

Phebey Mary Watkins
Birth abt 1890
Llangeinor, Glamorgan, WalesCONFLICTING
Death
Family Info
FatherDaniel Watkins (1851-1937)NEW MotherAnn James (1855-)NEW
SpouseWilliam Richards (-)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish
Phoebe Mary Watkins
BIRTH: Sep 1890 - Bridgend, Glamorgan

131 Victoria St Pontycymmer - 1911 cencus ?

It could well be her but marriage cert is really the only answer to find out her fathers name I'm affraid

jax

my aunt has found the original birth certificate in a family bible

She was Pheobe Mary Watkins,
letter addressed to her call her Phebey!
daughter of Daniel and Ann Watkins
born 14th june 1890, registered in Ogmore.
married in Bridgend in 1909.
My grandfather was William born in South Cornelly in 1886.

:-)

1891 Census

Name: Phebey M Watkins
Age: 10/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Daniel Watkins
Mother's Name: Ann Watkins
Gender: Female
Where born: Llangeinor, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil parish: Llangeinor
Ecclesiastical parish: Llangeinor
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street Address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image

Registration district: Bridgend
Sub-registration district: Ogmore
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Watkins 40 Workman, b. Ystalyfera, Glamorgan, Wales
Ann Watkins 36 b. Aberdare, Glamorgan, Wales
Morgan E Watkins 5 b. Aberdare, Glamorgan, Wales
John F Watkins 2 b. Llangeinor, Glamorgan, Wales
Phebey M Watkins 10/12
Evan Griffiths 30 Boarder
Jane Griffiths 21 Boarder

Marriage??
Was Ann's maiden surname James on Phoebe's birth certificate please?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1882 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Ann Pontypridd 11a 514
WATKINS Daniel Evan Pontypridd 11a 514

1901 - surname mistranscribe on Ancestry.

Name: Morgan Wakins
Age in 1901: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Daniel Wakins
Mother's Name: Ann Wakins
Gender: Male
Where born: Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil parish: Llangeinor
Ecclesiastical parish: Garw Valley
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street Address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image

Registration district: Bridgend
Sub-registration district: Ogmore
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 385
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Wakins 48
Ann Wakins 45
Morgan Wakins 15
John T Wakins 12
Phebo Wakins 10
William Wakins 8
Stanley Wakins 7
Jenny Wakins 5
David Wakins 3
Pheobe M James 17 Visitor (Related to Ann and who your Phoebe is named for???)

wow you people are amazing
well I've found phoebe's brother morgan and his family in lake usa with all the emigrating papers.
Morgan Evan Watkins 18 Mar 1886
What I hadn't spotted was jenny and david watkins

ann was called james

1871 - your Ann before her marriage to Daniel?? Marriage certificate will confirm her father's name.

Name: Ann James
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Evan James
Mother's Name: Phoebe James
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberdare, Glamorganshire, Wales
Civil parish: Aberdare
Town: [Caendare]
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub-registration district: Aberdare
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 129
Household Members: Name Age
Evan James 43 Coal Miner, b. Hinlan, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Phoebe James 42 b. Abercomogn, Carmarthenshire, Wales
John James 19 b. Llamfyhingel, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary James 17 b. Aberdare, Glamorganshire, Wales
Ann James 15
Hannah James 7 b. Aberdare, Glamorganshire, Wales
Jane James 5 b. Aberdare, Glamorganshire, Wales
Sarah James 3 b. Aberdare, Glamorganshire, Wales
Daniel Davies 43

thats really helpful
can I ask how you find this out as I struggle a bit but would love to start loking at other parts of my family to do the same

Ruth do you subscribe to any sites? from what you were saying I dont think you do. Why not take the 14 day free trial with ancestry, I think FMP may do a trial as well, but remember cancel in time if you dont want to continue

jax

I've paid for 6 months use of here as standard membership which has been very useful and I have the free membership but paid £6 to see 15 credits on the ancestry site which I used very quickly.

I bought family maker version 16 and was told I would get a free trial on acncestry with it but it doesn't seem to work

whats fmp?

fmp = FindMyPast - http://www.findmypast.co.uk

Do we have this marriage yet?

Name: John C Townley
> Spouse : Annie M Richards
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Registration district: Southampton
Registration county (inferred): Hampshire
Volume Number: 2c
Page Number: 94
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Southampton is a likely place for a sea captain to marry. ;)


Possibly? --

Name: Annie Mary Townley
Birth Date: 8 Jan 1892
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1985
Age at death (estimated): 93 = dob c1892
Registration district: Torbay
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 21
Page: 2188

Wrong middle name --

Name: John William Townley
Birth Date: 7 Nov 1884
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970
Registration district: Torbay
Inferred County: Devonshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 2086


Births Jun 1891 ?
Richards Annie Mary Pontypridd 11a 480

Nancy is a nickname for Ann.


1901 ?

Name: Annie M Richards
Age in 1901: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Richards
Mother's Name: Lizzie Richards
Where born: Pontypridd, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil parish: Pontypridd
Town: Pontypridd
County/Island: Glamorgan

John Richards 43
Lizzie Richards 33
Annie M Richards 9
Ilitt Richards 6

thats interesting as nancy died very recently btween 70's to 90's and yes she was in devon.

I still can't tell where she fits in, I think she was douglas's sister.

my mum said something about dougs uncle living with them or next door and I wonder if nancy was a cousin if not sister

also there was a step mum to doug that I remember as a child callling her nana peg. I can't find anything about her though.

douglas and kathleen lived in manchester for a long time and had my mum and aunts/uncle there so I think the peggy / nancy link might be much later.

Thanks for the details on the other site

Ruth, from memory on FamilyTree Maker there is an option to select from one of the drop down menus to activate Ancestry. Got to go out this morning but I will try to have a closer look later.

thanks
i still can't find much on douglas richards father which would solve the nancy richards and nana peg thing. they are definately 2 different people.

I've found loads on douglas's mum phoebe on ancestry site

There's only one marriage that could be your Nancy marrying Mr. Townley, the one I put above:

Name: John C Townley
> Spouse : Annie M Richards
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Registration district: Southampton
Registration county (inferred): Hampshire
Volume Number: 2c
Page Number: 94

Since that Annie Mary Richards Townley died in Devon in 1985, doesn't she kind of have to be your Nancy?

There are 8 Nancy Townley deaths deaths in the index. Five were in Lancashire (four of them in the 1940s), one in Yorkshire (born 1886, died 1972), one in Cheshire (born 1929, died 2005) and one in Malvern (Nancy Phyllis, born 1911, died 1975). None of them look at all likely to be your Nancy.

The Annie Mary Richards born Pontypridd 1891 I looked at in 1901 would be this person in 1911, I think:

INSTITUTION - RICHARDS ANNIE MARY 1892 19 Pontypridd Glamorganshire

Also in an institution in Pontypridd are

RICHARDS JOHN 1859 52
RICHARDS ELIZABETH 1868 43
RICHARDS HID 1895 16

i.e. the rest of the household from 1901.


I'm afraid I've found this thread very confusing!

You said:

"there was definately a nancy as my mum remembers her but not sure if was grandads sister or aunt."


You have these two birth records:

Births Jun 1920
Richards Douglas Watkins Bridgend 11a 2035
Births Jun 1912
Richards Nancy Watkins Merthyr T. 11a 1694

Do you have or have you ordered the certificates?


You said:

"i still can't find much on douglas richards father which would solve the nancy richards and nana peg thing. they are definately 2 different people."

What I can't figure out is whether you know who Douglas's father was!


There is just the one marriage of a John C Townley to a Richards, the one I posted, to Annie Mary Richards, in Southampton. Just checking for a John W Townley to match the death record that looks likely, there is no marriage to a Richards.

A match for the death in Devon:

Name: John William Townley
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Aston (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 284

Where do you have the name John C Townley from, to start with?


Re this death:

Name: Nancy Phyllis Townley
> Birth Date: 7 Jun 1911
Death Registration Month/Year: 1975
Registration district: Malvern
Inferred County: Hereford & Worcester
Volume: 29
Page: 0560

this is the marriage to match:

Name: Nancy P Tate
Spouse: Claude F Townley
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1950
Registration district: Launceston
Registration county (inferred): Cornwall
Volume Number: 7a
Page Number: 171

and this is her birth:

Name: Nancy P Tate
Year of Registration: 1911
> Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Perkins
District: Upton Upon Severn
County: Worcestershire
Volume: 6c
Page: 514

and the husband's death:

Name: Claude F Townley
Death Registration Month/Year: 1958
Age at death (estimated): 62 = dob c1896
Registration district: Launceston
Inferred County: Cornwall
Volume: 7a
Page: 59

So the Nancy Phyllis Townley death is *not* the Nancy Richards born 1911.


Okay, I've finally figured out the answer to my question about Douglas's father:

Marriages Dec 1909
RICHARDS William Bridgend 11a 1434
WATKINS Phoebe Bridgend 11a 1434

So the question is whether you have or have ordered that marriage certificate, to get *his* father's name. Unless I'm missing that here somewhere, too.

1911

RICHARDS WILLIAM 1886 25 Bridgend Glamorganshire
RICHARDS PHOEBE M 1889 22
RICHARDS MERVYN M 1910 1

Ruth had posted that entry for Phoebe, but without the details as to William's birthplace, on page 2.

I can't make any connection between William Richards c1886 (I don't pay to access details in the 1911 so I don't know where born) and John Richards c1858 (born Bridell, Pembrokeshire), father of what seems to be the Annie Mary Richards who seems to have married Mr Townley. John was living with an uncle John in 1861 and then with a sister Martha Davies in 1881, and married by 1891.

But it is *possible* that between 1881 and 1891 he had a first marriage and was the father of William, making William the older half-brother of Annie Mary. Possible. Except that would leave the question of where William was in 1891 and 1901.

So as far as I can tell, you don't have the Richards + Watkins marriage certificate, and without it you're not going to get anywhere on finding his parents and thus what his connection was to Nancy.

hiya, yes its very confusing

My grandad Douglas Richards always spoke with pride about Nancy marrying Captain John Townley of the Queen Mary ship but my mother and aunt can't remember if she was a cousin or sister.

The reason I wondered if she was a step sister was as Douglas's dad William (born 1886) had a second wife called Peg (Peggy / Margaret)

William's pfather was Thomas Richards