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I can't find Caroline in 1851 but this is a possibilty for Joseph with a son Henry.

1851 England Census
about Joseph Mortlock Name: Joseph Mortlock
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Brother
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Waterloo Road Second
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Mortlock 34 (Beer Shop Keeper) Lambeth
Joseph Mortlock 27 (Wid) Barman
Henry Mortlock 5 (Nephew) Lambeth
Henry Manning 40 (Visitor)

Which would tie in with..

Deaths Sep 1849 (>99%)
Mortlock Caroline Lambeth 4 516

And the reason why Rose is a Visitor here in 1851...


1851 England Census
about Rosa Mortlock Name: Rosa Mortlock
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Visitor
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church First
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Saundy 52
Mary Saundy 53
Alfred Saundy 23
Rosa Saundy 21
Edward Saundy 16
George Saundy 11
Thomas Saundy 7
Rosa Mortlock 3

(A Correction for the surname has been submitted......"Soundy")

Joseph is a "Butcher" in the 1861 census which would tie in with Rose and Francis marriage details...


1861 England Census
about Joseph Mortlock Name: Joseph Mortlock
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Plumstead
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Plumstead
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Mortlock 45 (Butcher employing 1 man)
Mary A Mortlock 39 (Wife)
Joseph Mortlock 32 (Butcher)

Res: Butchers, Sandy Hill Road, 8 Bright Terrace.

I couldn't find Sobieski Clements or Joseph Mortlock who are together in the 1861 census in Jersey..........but now you have mentioned a Sophie Clements in Jersey in 1851 i took a look.


1851 Channel Islands Census
about Sophia Clements Name: Sophia Clements
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1800
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: England
Civil Parish or Township: St Helier
Town: St Helier
County/Island: Jersey
Country: Channel Islands
Registration district: Jersey
Household Members: Name Age
Sophia Clements 51 (Widow)
Rosa Clements 20
Clement Clements 19
Jane Clements 17
France Clements 13
Joseph Nortlock 7


I would say Sophie is actually Sobieski (She has her children with her) and Joseph Nortlock is Joseph Mortlock who i believe to be her daughter Caroline's son.

You're right about it getting complicated, Prickles, no wonder I was getting confused, thank you again for your help in trying to unravel it.

To make this "stick" I think I need a birth reference for Joseph Mortlock (the one that married Caroline Clements), it seems likely that this would be around 1855 and that would have him marrying a woman 25 years his senior. Not impossible.

How reliable might that marriage record be? If I've got this right, then Joseph 1829 married Caroline (don't now when, guess 1848ish?), but she died 1849 which would leave Joseph 1829 free to remarry - but not in 1843. If the 1843 entry was an error (1853??) then Joseph 1929 could have remarried with Caroline Clements 1826 - aaaarrgh!

Or, are both Josephs and both Carolines the same people. I note that Joseph 1829 married Caroline X, could that have been Caroline Clements in the first place? That would have him marrying in 1843 and his wife dying in 1849. I can't help feeling that the coincidence of names is rather too great (althogh not impossible). This solution is tidier but that doesn't make it right ... I think this was what you deduced too:

So did Francis marry his Sisters daughter?? It would seem so.

Or am I still not getting it?

Keith

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Jane Oxley Clements Name: Jane Oxley Clements (Spinster)
Spouse Name: Francis Stead (Widower) Engraver
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Apr 1859
Parish: St Pancras Parish Chapel
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Thomas Oxley Clements (Dead)
Spouse Father Name: William Henry Stead (Dead)
Register Type: Parish Register

Household Record 1881 British Census

Search results | Download Previous Household Next Household


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Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Francis STEAD Head M Male 69 Strand, Middlesex, England Silver Engraver
Jane O. STEAD Wife M Female 45 Boro Southwark, Surrey, England
Clementine L. CHAPMAN Neice U Female 15 Rowlands Castle, Hampshire, England Cashier (Clk)
George F. KING Lodger U Male 35 Kentish Town, Middlesex, England Sec To An Advance Compy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 24 Princes Sqre
Census Place Lambeth, Surrey, England

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Francis Stead Name: Francis Stead
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Date of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1881
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 298

Excellent, Prickles, thank you. There's a circumstantial piece of evidence there with Clementine Chapman niece, but is there any way to tie Jane into the family of Clementina Sobieski? I can see Thomas as father but I haven't yet seen Jane on any census putting her "at home wth her parents".

Do you think it would be fair to assume no children from this marriage? I guess Francis might have some from his previous marriage?

Keith

Francis with his first wife..

1851 England Census
about Francis Stead Name: Francis Stead
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rosa Stead
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Strand, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hammersmith
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: St Paul Hammersmith
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 126
Piece: 1470
Folio: 366
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Francis Stead 39 (Engraver)
Rosa Stead 34 Lambeth Surrey
Frosa Battosher 16 (Niece)
Bertha Noseda 2 (Visitor)


Deaths Mar 1858 (>99%)
Stead Rose Augusta Pancras 1b 27

Jane is at a Girls School with Sister Rosa in the 1841 census and she is with her Mother Sobieski (Sophia) in Jersey in 1851.

fascinating, again no children. Thanks Prickles!

Interesting also to see that bits of what we now call London were separate and parts of Middlesex etc.

And I'd missed that 1851 entry, thanks for pointing that out (again), so that all fits.

Now, can I push a bit further back, please? According to an informal family history, Clementina was part of the Sobieski Stuart family. Her siblings were:
Catherine
Rose
Jane
Jeremiah

Can we find any of them and perhaps confirm / identify the parents?

I can't see a Charles Chapman/Juila Mortlock marriage.

Assuming that the surname of these are Stuart then....

Are they also siblings of Sobieski?


When and where were Clementina and her siblings born?

I have an informal family sketch which I'm trying to evaluate, it might be wishful thinking, and it might be serious research.

In it the only parent is "Sobieski Stuart" (could also be Stewart), it's not clear whether this was one person's name or indicates a marriage betwen Sobieski & Stuart.

Thereunder are the siblings:
Catherine
Rose
Jane
Jeremiah
Clementina

In these family sketches I have already found a couple of errors: a member of one cohort being wrongly allocated to another.

The earliest information I have for Clementina is:

C1841 England Census
about Sobieski Clements Name: Sobieski Clements
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Female
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil parish: St Saviour
Hundred: Southwark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

I have no information on her siblings.

It's just possible that Julia Mortlock married Charles Oxley Clements, this may be another case of mixed generations.

Well i found the baptism for Jane that i couldn't find earlier!

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Jane Axley Clements Name: Jane Axley Clements (Oxley on the image)
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1833
Baptism Date: 22 Sep 1833
Father's Name: Thomas Oxley Clements (Salesman)
Mother's Name: Sobieske Clements
Parish or Poor Law Union: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers
Born 22nd Sept 1933
Res: Market Street.

Some other info that might be of interest to you...

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sobieska Oxley Clements Name: Sobieska Oxley Clements (Spinster)
Spouse Name: Samuel Coleman (Bachelor) Occ Gilder?
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Nov 1846
Parish: Rotherhithe Christ Church
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Clements (Dead)
Spouse Father Name: Samuel Coleman (Merchant)
Register Type: Parish Register




London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Rosa Oxley Clements Name: Rosa Oxley Clements (Spinster) Warren St.
Spouse Name: Daniel Chapman (Bachelor) Clerk...Trinity District.
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Jul 1857
Parish: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Thomas Oxley Clements (Slaesman ...Deceased)
Spouse Father Name: James Chapman (Confectioner)
Register Type: Parish Register


I have yet to find a marriage for Charles Oxley Clements!!

In fact i can't seem to find anything for Charles after the 1841 census.

Sorry but i don't have any information regarding the Stuart/Stewart's.

Thank you again, and again, and again! Those three records fit in nicely.

I wonder what happened to Charles Oxley Clements, maybe he emigrated?

What can you find for Julia Mortlock? I've seen the name in Suffolk but there's not enough detail to know if it's relevant.

Have I / we wandered so far from the original topic that I need to start a new thread?

Keith

Hi Keith

There are lot's of Julia Mortlock's.

Who is your Julia Mortlock Connected to? ....and when and where do you think she was born?

I don't have worldwide subs.....but i will ask someone who does to check out passenger lists for Charles Oxley Clements.

That was the problem I had, too many Julias ;-))

Apart from the marriage to Charles Herbert (?) Oxley (?) Chapman (or was it Clements), I have little to go on. What I'm inclined to do is to try and work forward from the other Mortlocks in the tree:

Joseph abt 1829 married Caroline Clements

and his three children:
Henry abt 1846
Joseph abt 1846
Rosa abt 1847 married Francis Thomas Oxley Clements

and his brother:
Henry abt 1816 married Mary A

The two familes are so linked I'd act on a hunch that Julia is in the same line somewhere.

On GR I see a lot of Julias 1850-60 which is my guessed DoB range in Shimpling and /or Clare and/or Chevington all in Suffolk. I'm again guessing that all ten of them are all the same person.

Thanks for checking on the export of Charles!!

Keith

Joseph's brother Henry's marriage...

Marriages Sep 1859 (>99%)
Barefield Mary Ann Lambeth 1d 435
Mortlock Henry Lambeth 1d 435

Another person who seems to have disappeared is Joseph's son Henry!