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There are actually 3 Public Family Trees on ancestry with Johan Schmedes and Maria Rode

One of them ahs the marriage certificate online, wiht the following note:-


Marriage after Banns between Johann Heinrich Schmedes(Sugar Baker) and Maria Christine Rode (recorded as a minor). From this point, both names are anglicised to John Henry and Mary Christine Smears. Witnesses to the marriage are Nicklaus and Emiley Ehlan. Fathers of the couple are Charles Schmedes (Hosier) and Charles Rode (Sugar Baker). D.J.Hirsch conducted the marraige ceremony.





?????????? Maria/Mary in 1861

1861 Census

Name: Mary Roden
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Gender: Female
Where born: Prince, Germany

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin

Charles Roden 30 b.ca 1831, Prince, Germany, Labourer
Mena Roden 30 b.ca 1831, Prince, Germany
Mena Roden 11 b.ca 1850, Prince, Germany
Mary Roden 8
Charles Roden 5 b.ca 1856, Prince, Germany
John Roden 11 Mo b.ca 1860, Liverpool, Lancashire

Address:- 16 Richmond Terrace



so they emigrated from germany to England between 1856 and 1860



sylvia

Could you have got two generations mixed up????

Norah Smears married Michael McQuade in September quarter 1901


Marie McQuade married Norman Currie in 1927

A Marie Gertrude McQuade was born in March quarter 1901, registered in York . She is on ancestry 1901 Census, daughter of Arthur and Mary McQuade



Have you actually bought the marriage certificate for Norman Currie??


If not, may I suggest that you do do so, as that would answer all these questions




sylvia

michael maquade and norah are my great grand parents norman and marie are my grand parents i have there marrage certificate they were married in manchester on 12th feb 1927 norman was 22 and marie was 18

So this is probably the birth registration fro your grandmother ........ Maria, not Marie


Births Sep 1909 (>99%)

McQuade Maria Liverpool 8b 33




and she is on the 1911 Census as Mary McQuade, born 1909




sylvia

Just out of interest

from one of those family trees ... and this information does seem to ebe accurate



Johanna Smears married Clement Reginald Simpson, Liverpool, 1898

Hannah Smears married Charles Henry Cutler Bowyer, Kirkdale, 1894

Wilhelmina Lena Smears married 1. George Heinrich Volter, Kirkdale. Name reverted to Schmedes on certiifcate. 2. William Smith, Kirkdale, November 1901

Louisa Mary Smears married William Freidrich Volter Liverpool, 1890. There is a note that Louisa had reverted to her German surname SCHMEDES as recorded on the marriage certificate

Lena Smears married William Walton Pratt Gateshead, 1905



there is NO mention of a Norah, nor of a marriage of any of these to a Michael McQuade





sylvia

FOUND

Honora Smears


doesn't look like any connection to the Schmedes family we have been tracing!! Unless Heinrich is Johann's brother


1901 Census

Name: Honora Smears
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Catherine
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin in the Fields
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin

Catherine Smears 34 b.ca 1867, Liverpool, Head, Married (no occupation given
Honora Smears 17 Tailoress

Address:- 282 Vauxhall Rd


and in 1891 ....... it is SMears on the image


1891 Census

Name: Honora Swears
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Catherine
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool

Civil parish: Kirkdale
Ecclesiastical parish: St Aidan
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Kirkdale

William Swears 27
Catherine Swears 26
Honora Swears 1







Births Mar 1884 (>99%)

Smears Honora Liverpool 8b 19




Marriages Sep 1883 (>99%)

DOYLE Catherine Liverpool 8b 232
Smears William Liverpool 8b 232









Births Jun 1863 (>99%)

SMEARS William Liverpool 8b 51





From a Public Family Tree, it looks as though William might be the son of HEINRICH SCHMEDES and Mary Powell (married 1850, Liverpool).

Heinrich was born 1823 in Germany, and died 1867 in Liverpool of Typhus



Edited because of incomplete posting earlier



sylvia

michael mcquade married norah smears at st peters church in liverpool sept 1901 i have also looked it up on here and it gives the code 8b 61

Thta's not a code


That is the volume no and page no in the GRO Index

GRO = General Records Office.


You order certificates from GRO, and use that GRO Reference Number if asked for it.


Go to www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


you ahve to register, but it is free.

Each certificate will cost you £9.25




You have a serious problem here ............. you might have been following the wrong family


You need to know the name of Norah's father, and that will be on the marriage certificate.



now I'm off to bed!



sylvia

Heinrich's widow Mary married Michael O'Connor in 1871, and the children took his surname

1871 Census

Name Age
Mary Oconnor 37
Mary Oconnor 18
Jane Oconnor 17
Elizabeth Oconnor 9
William Oconnor 7
Teresa Oconnor 5

Address:- 41 Portland St, Liverpool


sylvia

Hi Sylvia,

Found in pilots that Norah Smears [Lmears]???

Father William Lmears

Groom's Name: Michael Mcquade
Groom's Birth Date: 1880
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 21
Bride's Name: Norah Lmears
Bride's Birth Date: 1880
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 21
Marriage Date: 09 Sep 1901
Marriage Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: Francis Mcquade
Bride's Father's Name: William Lmears
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00931-9
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 93941
Reference Number: it533, p189, no378
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

I noted the area of where Hannah was born. Not familiar of English towns.

I agree, nothing to do with those parents.

Here's their marriage

Groom's Name: William Smears
Groom's Birth Date: 1863
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 20
Bride's Name: Catherine Doyle
Bride's Birth Date: 1865
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 18
Marriage Date: 10 Sep 1883
Marriage Place: St. Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: Henry Smears
Bride's Father's Name: Thomas Doyle
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00765-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1656687
Reference Number: it 2, p 240, no 479
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

just to back track a bit here - I'm completely confused now. What exactly was your starting point Ivy please? Do you have any of the certificates for your parents/grandparents to prove names. How did you get back to the family of Smears to which Lena belonged? Lena's sister seems to be Johanna/Hannah on the census returns shown.

eg on page 1
"its johns other daughter hanora who is my great grand mother ,she married my great grand father alexander mcquade"

on page 2
"my great grand mother honora married my great grandad michael mcquade in sep 1901 in st peters church liverpool"

on page 3
"michael mcquade married norah smears at st peters church in liverpool sept 1901 i have also looked it up on here and it gives the code 8b 61"


on the 1911 census there is a Michael and a Norah (don't have access so don't know if same family) but NO Alexander, Hannah, Hanora or Johanna McQuade

doing a search for households in Liverpool containing someone named Norah

HOUSEHOLD MCQUADE MARY F 1909 2 Liverpool Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD MCQUADE MICHAEL M 1882 29 Liverpool Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD MCQUADE NORAH F 1884 27 Liverpool Lancashire

HOWEVER
searching for Smears births 1883/84 gives this

Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
Smears Honora Liverpool 8b 19

if you do not have it, as Sylvia syays, you really do need that marriage certificate of Norman and the one for Michael & Norah/Honora if it is proved that Michael is Norman's father-in-law

The change form Honora to Norah is quite understandable


just try saying Hon-ora

it could sould like Nora(h) . and be so written down ...... or she might just have preferred that shortening of her name



BUT

I do think we have proved that Norah Smears was NOT of the family of John/Johann Smears / Schmedes



it might be that Johann and Heinrich were brothers ..................... but you should be following the Heinrich / Henry Schmedes / Smeers line



EDIT ........... second thoughts say that there is over 20 years age difference between Johann and Heinrich


Schmedes is also a pretty common name .............. so it might well be that there is no close relationship between them at all.




sylvia

Heinrich Schmedes father was also called Heinrich


no date of birth or death seemingly found


Johann Hienrich's father was apparently called Charles Schmedes, no birth or death dates shown on any trees.

Heinrich was born ca 1823

Johann 1845




My gut feeling is that there are two separate families of Schmedes involved here ....... faint possibility that Heinrich and Johann could be uncle and nephew maybe .....................




sylvia

interesting that Michael & Norah's son was called Francis - the same as Michael's father in that marriage Gael posted

i have got the marrage cetificate of norman and marie who are my grand mother and grand father .maries father who is my great grand father called michael mcquade michael mcquade married honora smears at st peters chuch in liverpool honora father was john smears beleave it or not i only asked why the first names of people can be changed on certificates although they are the same people

Ivy

You didn't ONLY ask if people's names could be changed on a certificate


if you had ..... the answer would have been quite simple ..... yes, of course they can change their names from what they were given at birth. Always have been able to, always will be able to



your first request was:-


can anyone please help me i have traced my great great grand fathers name but i dont know where to get his birth csrtificate from as the info i have says he was german brit sub .as anyone come across this before ,and i have no idea where to go next any help would be great many thanks ivy



and everyone set out to see if they could help you find your gt gt grandfather's birth certificate



However ..... it does appear that Honora might have been wrong in the name she gave for her father


all the evidence shows

a) John or Johann did not have a daughter who changed her name to Honora and married Michael McQuade


b) Honora Smears (or Smeers) was the daughter of William Smears.



She could quite simply have forgotten what her father was called, and gave John ............. funnier things have happened!





sylvia

Also Ivy you still have not said that you have the Michael/Honora marriage certificate to prove her father's name. Each time you have only said you have you grandparents certificate.

This family is part of my tree with Heinrich Schmedes and Mary Powell. can you please tell me where I can find the public tree that you mention.

thanks Carl