Find Ancestors

I am new to this and am urgently looking for some help please.
My mother is 90 next month and basically Im trying to find a relative who might have a photo of her father, the story is quite sad, she has never totally recovered from his death.
The subject here is my grandfather and he was born in Westbury, brother to Gwyn Nicholls (Welsh rugby legend) I believe there were 6 other brothers and one elder sister.
He died aged 33 in an accident and left my mother, her brother Tom and sister Patricia very young. The family had to change their home and all their belongings went into storage where seemingly they were stolen, this included any memories and photos of the family.
If anyone thinks that they might be able to help me with this quest, I would be eternally grateful as I really dont have a clue what Im doing.
Thankyou

Have you tried the search trees at the top of the screen for any family members?

jax

You need to give us a bit more info to connect up the dots.

He died at age 33 -- when? Or in other words: when was he born?

If we have an idea for that, we can try to match up his birth with a Gwyn (older? younger?) and look for other births.

Your mum was born about 1920 ... so he was born sometime 1890-1900 maybe?

Only two Gwyn Nicholls-s near that old:

Births Mar 1893
Nicholls Gwyn Hartley Cardiff 11a 313
Births Jun 1907
NICHOLLS Gwyn Bridgend 11a 959

?

The idea would seem to be to identify Tom's other siblings and look for their children and grandchildren, and this could be possible in at least some cases, depending on how common their names are. So just give us as much info as you have!

And as jax says, don't forget to use Search Trees if you do have names and birth details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwyn_Nicholls

Figured wiki would have him. ;)



Erith Gwyn Nicholls (15 July 1874 – 24 March 1939)[2] was a Welsh rugby union player who gained 24 caps for Wales as a centre. Nicholls was known as the "Prince of Threequarters".[3]

Born in Westbury-on-Severn, ...

Notable relative(s)
Bert Winfield, brother in law
Sydney Nicholls, brother



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Nicholls

Sydney 'Sid' Herbert Nicholls (29 May 1868 – 24 November 1946) was an English-born dual code rugby forward who played club rugby under the union code for Cardiff and in his later years league rugby with Hull. ...

Nicholls was born in 1868 in Hartpury, England to Hartley Nicholls, a farm supervisor, and his wife Jane Eliza (née, Millard).[2] The second eldest of five children, he had an elder sister and five younger brothers, the third of his brothers being Gwyn Nicholls.

Notable relative(s)
Gwyn Nicholls, brother
Jack Nicholls, son
Occupation(s) publican, hotelier



Now we have something to work with!

1881 Wales census

Name: Thomas H. Nicholls
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Hartley
Mother's Name: Jane E.
Gender: Male
Where born: Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Roath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street Address: Constellation St Roath Market

Hartley Nicholls 43
- Inspector Of Cattle & Slaughter House, born Stonebridge, Gloucestershire
Jane E. Nicholls 31
- born Hartpury, Gloucestershire
Clara Nicholls 14
Sydney H. Nicholls 12
Thomas H. Nicholls 11
Douglas H. Nicholls 9
Erith G. Nicholls 6
Ivor J. Nicholls 3
Auther B. Vallinder 18
- nephew, born Australia, corn merchant's clerk


So there we have siblings.


This doesn't quite make sense:

"The second eldest of five children, he had an elder sister and five younger brothers, the third of his brothers being Gwyn Nicholls."

-- that makes 7 kids, not 5. Will check 1891 for any more.

The problem we have is that this Thomas was born c1870. He would have been 33 in 1903. Your mum wasn't born until c1920.


Have I got the wrong Gwyn Nicholls as my starting point? The rest does seem to fit ...

1891 in Cardiff with the last child:

Hartley Nicholls 53
Jane E Nicholls 44
Clara Nicholls 24
Thomas H Nicholls 21
Douglass H Nicholls 19
With G Nicholls 17
Ivor J Nicholls 13
Garnet E Nicholls 7


Searching trees here for surname Nicholls born in Westbury 1875 +/- 10 years:

several people have Douglas 1872
the same people have Thomas 1870

You will want to contact them if you are not already in touch. (You'll also want to put a tree up with all these names in them, even if you don't work up the rest of your tree at all, just so that anyone who searches for any of them will find you. You can find correct birthdates for the rest by searching at FreeBMD: http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl


Births Jun 1870
Nicholls Thomas Henry Westbury S. 6a 225


So it must be Tom's age at death you got wrong. Possibly 53, in 1923?

Marriages Sep 1895 ?
Coward Jessie Dixtow Cardiff 11a 423
Davies John Charles Cardiff 11a 423
James Thomas Cardiff 11a 423
? Nicholls Thomas Henry Cardiff 11a 423
Phillip Mary Ann Cardiff 11a 423
Richards Elizabeth Maud Cardiff 11a 423


But we don't know who his wife was, and I can't find him in 1901 at all.


1911

NICHOLLS THOMAS HENRY 1870 41 Cardiff Glamorganshire
NICHOLLS ELIZABETH 1875 36
NICHOLLS THOMAS HARTLEY 1896 15
HOUSEHOLD NICHOLLS JOHN WILIAM 1898 13
HOUSEHOLD NICHOLLS TOM 1901 10
HOUSEHOLD NICHOLLS ANNIE MAUD 1907 4


That is certainly him (note the name Hartley - possibly a nephew; I don't subscribe for access to details), but it still isn't adding up.


I should stop, because I have the feeling I'm probably telling you things you know.

If you have a look at the management's post pinned at the top of the TTF board (you have to click to view the entire board, not just the Nicholls "surname board" if that's what you're looking at), one of the requests is that people stick around for a bit to read and reply to questions and info. It's very late at night in the UK (I'm in Canada), but there's almost always someone here reading and replying!

Are these by any chance your mum and her siblings, mother's surname Thomas?

Vera L Nicholls Oct Nov Dec 1920 Cardiff Wales
Thoas H Nicholls Jul Aug Sep 1922 Cardiff Wales
- as transcribed by Ancestry
and a third with middle initial P in 1929 (I don't want to post info about someone who may be living)


Are you sure that Thomas brother of Gwyn wasn't your mother's *grandfather*?? And the Tom aged 10 in 1901 her father?


Name: Tom Nicholls
Spouse: Annie V Thomas
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1920
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration county (inferred): Glamorgan
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 564


So was he in fact Tom, not Thomas?

Births Mar 1901
Nicholls Tom Cardiff 11a 367

Yes.

Name: Tom Nicholls
Death Registration Month/Year: 1934
Age at death (estimated): 33
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 400

And there we have it.

Almost all of which is in fact known to you, I guess.


To tie it up:

1901

Name: Tom Nicholls
Age in 1901: 3 months
Estimated birth year: abt 1900
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil parish: St Mary
Town: Cardiff
County/Island: Glamorgan

Elizabeth Nicholls 27 - married, born Cardiff
John Nicholls 3
Tom Nicholls 3 months
Nellie Brooke 15 - servant


One of the people with the Westbury Nicholls-s in her tree has John 1899 Cardiff.

Marriages Jun 1921
Evans Florence E Nicholls Cardiff 11a 639
Nicholls John W Evans Cardiff 11a 639

Search at FreeBMD for
births
surname Nicholls
mother's surname Evans
registration district Cardiff
and you'll find 4 births to 1929.


If you search trees here for Nicholls born 1920-1930 in Cardiff, e.g., you'll find names like Ivor (whose birth I don't see in the index) whom one might expect to be related as well.

Thankyou everyone for your help, seems like my mother actually was right when she said her uncle Gwyn was in fact her Gt uncle!
I am very new to this and I am quite fazed by it all, Im so grateful!
I think that I must try to find a John Nicholls now then, as the only sibling, he might have decendants with some pictures!
I am confused though as my mother always talks about her Uncle Hartley who lived in Bath and her cousin who she spent summers with called Derek, I think he was of similar age.

Interestingly my father also had a cousin called Derek Nicholls it seems, not sure if it was the same person.

Thankyou, all help greatly appreciated.

Hi Heather! You're welcome from everyone. ;)

The way it pretty much certainly goes is:

- your great-grandfather was Thomas Nicholls born 1870, son of Hartley and Jane; he had sibs Clara, Sydney, Erith Gwyn, Douglas, Ivor, Garnet

- your grandfather was Tom Nicholls born 1901, son of Thomas and Elizabeth; he had siblings John William and Annie Maud (in the 1911 census)

Does your mother know her mother's full name? (edit - that should say "her grandmother".) It seems to have been Elizabeth Maud Richards -- she is the only Elizabeth in the list of marriages on that page in 1895.

If so, there don't seem to have been any more children born to your grandparents (edit - that should say "your great-grandparents") after the 1911 census. (Starting in 1911, you can search for births by both parents' surnames.)

I don't know what the relationship of the Thomas Hartley Nicholls in the 1911 census household is. It seems unlikely that Thomas and Elizabeth would have a son Thomas and then a son Tom. A nephew, perhaps, cousin of Tom. Although he could be an older son (and your mother's uncle), if he went by Hartley maybe.

So you are looking for descendants of John William and Annie Maud, your mother's aunt and uncle.

And yes -- Hartley did have a son Derek.

Thomas H Nicholls married Wallis
Apr-May-Jun 1918 Cardiff Glamorgan

Derek E H Nicholls mother Wallis
Jan Feb Mar 1920 Cardiff Wales

He married in 1947; I'm not seeing a death for him.

Give me til later today; have to get some work done. Looking for any kids of Derek's will be a bit complicated as I'll explain. I'll also look for kids of Tom's sibs John and Annie.

Hi Janey, without sounding 'cheesy' Im a bit in awe of all this if Im honest!
My grandmothers name was Annie Victoria Thomas, her sister was Louisa and they were both born in Cardiff around the 1900's.
There is quite a mystery from their side of the family because I think it was their father who was the product of a marriage that was anulled somewhere in the west of Wales.
The daughter who was an only child of a titled family (possibly Caernarvon castle, certainly a castle but my great aunt and granmother were very shy of talking about it all) the daughter ran off with the groom and married, the family found out and got the marriage anulled but my great great grandfather appeared!
The marriage was anulled and the child was put to live with his paternal grandparents to be brought up.

Its said that the mother never married again and the castle was given to the National Trust.
The child was looked after financially but never saw his mother again.

Whoops, sorry -- I said:

"Does your mother know her mother's full name? It seems to have been Elizabeth Maud Richards"

but that was (I think) your mother's *grandmother*, not her mother, and I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't know that!

But you've confirmed I have the right marriage for your mother's parents, Tom Nicholls & Annie V Thomas.

Now you're veering off into the other side of the family. ;) (Mm hm, and my gr-grfather was the son of the black sheep younger brother of the 5th Viscount Monck ... forgive us if we're skeptical of the family story; we all have 'em!)

I'm happy to check that bit out, but first we'll see what we can find on your mum's father's side -- a little later! I have to concentrate for that and I'm still finishing that job ...

Oh, well ....

Births Sep 1905
Thomas Annie Victoria Neath 11a 972


1911

THOMAS ANNIE VICTORIA 1906 5 Neath Glamorganshire
living with
THOMAS JOHN 1834 77
THOMAS CATHERINE 1837 74
THOMAS DANIEL 1876 35
THOMAS SOPHIA WILHELMINA 1880 31
THOMAS KATIE SOPHIA 1904 7
THOMAS MARGARET ANN 1911 2 MONTHS

We need somebody with paid access to 1911 to tell us what it says!

Marriages Dec 1902
Johanson Sophia Wilhelmina Neath 11a 1363
Thomas Daniel Neath 11a 1363

??

But trial and error in the 1911 tells us that Sophia Wilhelmina and Katie Sophia were born in Sweden.



Except ... was Annie Victoria 15 when she married?? Either she was or I've got the wrong AVThomas. ;)

I'm thinking this might more likely be your AVThomas. ;)

THOMAS ANNIE VICTORIA 1898 13 Cardiff Glamorganshire
THOMAS JANET LOUISA 1896 15
THOMAS MR JOHN HENRY 1873 38
THOMAS MRS LIZZIE ANN 1875 36

Or she might be in the census as plain Annie.

That couple would be:

Marriages Dec 1894
Moss Lizzie Ann Haverfordwest 11a 1835
Thomas John Henry Haverfordwest 11a 1835

The two kids in that 1911 census household were never born, though ...


edit - this is that household in 1901 in Haverfordwest:

John Thomas 29 - colliery [hitcher?] [illeg] ground worker, born Haverfordwest
Lizzie Thomas 30
Jane Thomas 5
Annie Thomas 4
Charles Thomas 2
James Leamington 29 (relative)
Mana Leamington 25
Fanny Leamington 6
Edith Leamington 5
May Leamington 3

The girls acquired middle names by the 1911 census.


To pursue Annie Victoria Thomas's line, I think you will really need to get the Annie+Tom Nicholls marriage certificate to see her age and father's name/occupation, to use for matching in the censuses.

You don't see any Nicholls births with a mother resembling either of those surnames do you Fairthorn?

From a bit more snooping around your family, I think I've figured out Annie Victoria's death:

Name: Anne Victoria Nicholls
Birth Date: 23 May 1900
Death Registration Month/Year: 1974
Registration district: Cheltenham
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 22
Page: 1455

so that gives us her date of birth as well (if it was reported correctly on her death). But it still doesn't find me her birth ...


Her sister Louisa is certainly deceased -- can you give us her married surname (and any other info)?

This isn't getting your mum any family photos, but I'm assuming she'd like to know things about her mother's side too! My mum's 80, and I've been regaling her for some years now. ;)

My email tells me I have a message from you, Heather, but this %$#@ website is once again giving me an error message instead of my inbox, no matter how many times I reload, so I'll check it tomorrow!

Hi Janey,
My Great Aunt Louisa was married to a Frederick Berry, they lived in Somerset I think, maybe Taunton. She had one child Georgina, who died of TB at about 12 ..if my memory serves me rightly.
The two girls were born in Cardiff and Annie lived there most of her life but died in Cheltenham hospital.
I would love to be able to present a tree of some sort to my mother on 11th of Sept, youre right I think she would love this.
Thanks : )

Oh, I think I'm good. Could this be them?

Name: Janet L Thomas
Spouse: Frederick J S Berry
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1920
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration county (inferred): Glamorgan
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 1099


Janet Louisa Thomas, as hypothesized earlier re the 1911 census? There's only one other Frederick Berry marriage to a Thomas, and she isn't Louisa (and was previously married).

The 1911 census:

THOMAS ANNIE VICTORIA 1898 13 Cardiff Glamorganshire
THOMAS JANET LOUISA 1896 15
THOMAS MR JOHN HENRY 1873 38
THOMAS MRS LIZZIE ANN 1875 36 (née Moss)

Fredda G Berry was born in Cardiff 1922 and died in Cardiff 1935. (Whole swaths of my Cornwall/Devon ancestors were taken out by TB in the late 1900s. My grandmother's first child died not much later than 1922 in Canada of strep throat ...)

Name: Janet Louisa Berry
Birth Date: 8 Nov 1895
Death Registration Month/Year: 1978
Registration district: Sedgemoor
Inferred County: Somerset
Volume: 23
Page: 1470

So yup, that 1911 household is pretty surely them. And in the 1901:

John Thomas 29
Lizzie Thomas 30
Jane Thomas 5
Annie Thomas 4
Charles Thomas 2 (must have died in childhood; the 1911 details would say)

Both girls shown as born in Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire.


The closest I can come for a birth is

Births Dec 1895
Thomas Janet J Haverfordwest 11a 1122a