Find Ancestors

I can't help you with probate stuff - I'm in Canada you know. ;)

Online stuff I'm good for - like the 1911:

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx

You can find a whole lot of stuff without paying. Here's a thread with a good explanation of how to tease its secrets out:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1160992

Tip for threads here -- if you are using the AU or NZ or ZA portal that could take you somewhere where you aren't signed in. So just change the numbers after the = sign in the thread you're in -- right now it says

1218512&px=2

up above because you're on page 3

to the thread number for where you want to go, which in this case is

1160992

and then hit Enter.


You would probably find something about your man in the London Gazette

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/

which is where you find legal notices, like the bankruptcy of my grx2 grandfather right at the time he ran off with another woman ... and of his son-in-law (the Coke) ... ;)

Yours, unfortunately, has a much more common name, and I wish you luck. I tried

Davies Mostyn

but of course the results are mostly people named Mostyn ... You can use Robert Davies as an exact phrase, and add other things.

There's also the Times Online which I'm not really familiar with - it's pay, I think.

For local papers, I doubt you'll find much on line.

Hello Ladykira and Jane

I wonder if you can tell me where I can apply to find Probate records?

Also as Captain Robert, Robert and our Aunty Frances were very active in the community of Mostyn, I'm sure they would have got themselves in the local papers..
Here in NZ we have a site called Papers Past where you can search a name and it finds all the referances to that name. Is there a site over there or where else could I look?

Thanks

Linda

Hello Ladykira

Thanks for finding another relation for me. Sarah Conway Duncan.
Boy I wish I had access to the 1911 census.

I'm glad you found out where one of yours was on the night of the census.

The Robert Davies Richards was Robert Davies's and Richard Davies's nephew and he lived with Richard for a while.
Margaret was the name of Robert and Riuchards mother and their sister, just to confuse things. Luckily the sister became a Richards when she married.

Now talking about addresses, do you think Mostyn Quay, Peny Quay and Marsh Row could be all one of the same, as the family home was Mosyn House in Mostyn Quay.
Could the census recorders just got confused after a long day walking around do you think?

With the addresses can you only check within the census range, ie up to 1911 at this stage?

All the others you found are correct.

Thanks again

Linda

Hello Jane

Yes you are right about the 2 Robert Davies's.
The 1881 and 1891 census of 453 New Chester rd prove to me that they are one of the same and that he was out visiting Mr Littler on the 1881 census night, yippee one bit solved.

Now the married bit in 1891!!! Now I'll have to go back and have another look. That would cause even more problems.

I don't have access to the 1911 census yet but that one you found at 69 Birkrnhead Cheshire sounds like him, we don't think he died till around 1919 approx.

Thanks for finally sorting this out for me.

Linda

I confused myself for a while there. It is definitely the house he grew up in but the wrong Robert.

The relationship between the Richard and the Margaret confused me too.

I got all excited doing an address search.

It would not have taken long doing the journey from Mostyn to Cheshire,

LadyKira, I'm not following.

When you say "this is him", you're meaning - ?

Is the person in 1911 not Robert Davies RICHARDS, presumably a son of a daughter of Robert Davies Sr.? Yes, from 1901, nephew of Richard Davies, who was the eldest son of Robert Davies Sr., and son of Richard's widowed sister.

Mostyn House is where Robert *Sr* lived, as I understand from that passage posted earlier.

Assuming that "our" Robert Davies, shipowner, is a son of Robert Davies Sr., he is the younger brother of Richard Davies, and another uncle of Robert Davies Richards.

It seems to me that "our" Robert Davies is firmly settled in Cheshire for quite a long time, and just happens to have been double-enumerated in the 1881 because his housekeeper reported him at home when he was away visiting the Littlers.

1861 census - address transcription
Address: Mostyn Quay, Picton
138 DAVIES, Margaret Head Married F 51 1810 Wife Of Master Mariner
Amlwch
Anglesey
138 DAVIES, Richard Son Unmarried M 31 1830 Joiner
Amlwch
Anglesey

Immediatley underneath them i have just found

139 THOMPSON, Thomas Wm Lodger Unmarried M 21 1840 Colliery Cl
London

This guy is also on my tree and I did not know he was there.

Oh and thank you. Whilst looking for yours I have found one of mine.

1901 census - household transcription
Person: RICHARDS, Margaret
Address: Peny Quay, Whitford, Mostyn
DAVIES, Richard Head Single M 72 1829 Joiner Retired
Amlwch
Anglesey
RICHARDS, Margaret Sister Widow F 66 1835 House Keeper
Amlwch
Anglesey VIEW
RICHARDS, Robert D Nephew Single M 40 1861
Imbecile Childhood Chester
Cheshire
RICHARDS, Margaret A Niece Single F 30 1871
Chester
Cheshire

compare

1891 census -
Address: Mostyn Quay, Whitford, Mostyn
DAVIES, Richard Head Single M 62 1829 Retired Joiner
Amlwch
Anglesey
RICHARDS, Margaret Sister Widow F 56 1835 Lodging House Keeper
Amlwch
Anglesey
RICHARDS, Robert Davies Nephew Single M 30 1861 Living On Own Means
Imbecile Chester
Cheshire
RICHARDS, Isabel Niece Single F 18 1873 Living On Own Means


On this one Margaret is Richards sister???

This is him in 1911

This is Mostyn House where the family lived, Looks like Margaret has remarried. and been widowed again

1911 census - address transcription
Address: Mostyn House Mostyn Quay Mostyn
RICHARDS, Margaret Head Widow F 76 1835 Lodging House Keeper Amlwch
RICHARDS, Robert Davies Son Single M 50 1861 Chester VIEW
RICHARDS, Frances Elizabeth Daughter Single F 36 1875 Hotel Manageress Chester
RICHARDS, Isabella Daughter Single F 33 1878 Assisting Home Keeping Merion Maen Lwrog
DUNCAN, Sarah Conway Grand-Daughter F 10 1901 School Durham So Shields


But this Robert is born 1861?


hmm back in a bit

I hit delete instead of edit but quickly backtracked and recovered the text so I'll put it here now:


And on that last point (which I did screw up slightly since they're "both" there in 1881):


1891

Name: Robert Davies
Age: 49
>>> Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relation: Head
Where born: Mostyn Quay, Flintshire, Wales

Civil parish: Tranmere
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Cheshire

Robert Davies 49
Albert H Jones 23
>>> Margaret Foden 59
Margaret J Davies 28


This is the Robert Davies shown as having dob c1849 in 1881. That's the "M Foden" housekeeper from the 1881 household. Robert is a ship owner.


I seriously think you have one Robert Davies, not two, and in 1881 his housekeeper recorded him as being in the household although he was away visiting at the tme.

One interesting point -- the 1891 person is recorded as married.


What I was adding was ths, from the 1911:

DAVIES ROBERT 1842 69 Birkenhead Cheshire

That's "my" RD, the one who's recorded in one census as born 1849 but in all others as earlier, living consistently in Cheshire.

There's one other RD born in Mostyn 1842-1852 in the 1911:

DAVIES ROBERT NORMAN 1849 62 Carnarvon Carnarvonshire

Where, if I may be so bold as to ask, is your RD? ;)

I really don't think there are two of them.

He may well have not been in the country for censuses.

My gr-grfather's sister married into the Coke family of Neath, Glamorgan. Her husband's father was the Portreeve of Neath and a wealthy solicitor. His brother (uncle to my gr-grfather's sister's husband) was a copper and timber baron. Catching any of them in censuses is quite a trick. The uncle married very young in Wales (the wife was got rid of by his father and the children placed in convent schools), married/had a liaison with children in Chile, married in NSW and married again in Bristol -- which wives were still living at that point, nobody knows. ;)

Your Robert sounds a rather more staid gentleman, but he might still have been travelling on census nights!

I'm not sure what I think of this two Robert Davies shipowners from Mostyn, though. Are there any records where they exist simultaneously? One is in the 51 and 81 censuses, one is in the 61 and 71 censuses, neither marries ... ?

Hello Jane and LadyKira,
I hope you don't mind if I reply to you both in one message?
Boy you have both been busy while I was asleep, I'm in NZ.

I'm pretty certain now that the Robert Davies in the 1881 census with Benjamin Littler is Captain Roberts son as both were listed in regard to his Probate in 1882
So that would make Robert born around 1843 in Mostyn, Flintshire ,which would match the age and place my uncle remembers.

The 1851 census where is seems Robert was 8 with quite possibly his grandparents, which would make Ruth, Captain Robert's sister if I have that right, I wonder where Kings Bench is?

LadyKira your post at 00.50 is him alright.

Jane,
Robert had a sister called Jane born in 1838.
Our thoughts are that there were 2 Robert Davies ship owners from Mostyn, one born 1843 and the other 1849.
Amazing that you have a Littler in your history, pity Robert wasn't with them a bit more often.

Richard Davies was Robert's brother, we are still not sure why, Richard, as the first born was not named Robert, which seemed to be a family name and even stranger, that Robert, not Richard, dealt with his fathers probate?

LadyKira, the two families with Richard Davies in 1861 and 1891 are part of my family. He is also in the 1851/1871/1881/1901 census's too with his parents until they died and then with his sisters family until he died, then the house went to either Robert or Frances until she died.

Thank you both for all the information you have been unearthing.
Geneology is facinating, I wish I had more time to spend on it, can't wait to retire, only just over 10 years to go, so think of the advances to the web by then!!!!

Thanks again
Linda

very remotely possibly interesting -- the Foden family in 1871 (none of the rest of the names in Ancestry's list are related - once again, it has smashed several households together because the head of this one was called "mother"):

Civil parish: Bebington
Town: New Ferry
County/Island: Cheshire

Margt Foden 38 - innkeeper
Wm Foden 13
Margt I Foden 11
Joseph Foden 9
Ann Eliz Foden 7
Jane Davies 30 - niece - born Lancashire - married, domestic


I don't imagine there's any connection between Jane Davies and Robert Davies, but wanted to trace the Fodens just in case of a connecton there.

A bit more info here

Robert was an owner of ships which plied between Liverpool and the West Indies importing exotic fruit which sold through his wholesale business.

He was the son of Captain Robert Davies who built and operated the Prince of Wales paddle steamer which ran a daily service to Liverpool and back

carrying many of the wealthy business men who had built houses in North Wales.The Captain lived in Mostyn House which overlooked Mostyn
harbour which was a busy port in those days.Young Robert was no doubt brought
up in Mostyn so when he died a very wealthy man circa in 1924 ,a bachelor he did make a number of donations in his will which included a wing for a hospital,a wing for a library the hall and apparently a cats home.

His nieces inherited the remainder of the estate a part of which was Mostyn House which was bequeathed to my Great Aunt Francis Richards.

I have not found a baptism. How do you know he was Robert's son?

Isn't it rather interesting that Robert is in two places at once in 1881??

Name: Robert Davies
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Where born: Mostyn, Flintshire, Wales
Occupation: Ship Owner

Civil parish: Tranmere
County/Island: Cheshire

Robert Davies 32
M. Foden 48 - widow, housekeeper
W. Foden 23 - lawyer's clerk
J. Foden 19 - ditto
M.J. Foden 21 - milliner
A. E. Foden 17 - pupil teacher


Or were there two shipowning Robert Davies-s born in Mostyn at about the same time?


I suspect this is him in 1871:

Name: Robert Davies
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Mostyn, Flintshire, Wales

Civil parish: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire

Henry Lancaster 52 - pilot
Frances Lancaster 48
Eliza Lancaster 22
William Lancaster 20 - apprenticed to the sea
Eveline Lancaster 14
Harry Lancaster 13
Ada Lancaster 8
Thomas Liddecote 26 - chief officer - steamer(?)
Robert Davies 22 - clerk in office
Robert Wolfe 35 - manager bottle stores

Well, speaking of odds and unusuals - my grandmother was a Littler. ;)

I've noticed these Wales Littlers in the past. Mine are Leicestershire, presumed to be from the common Cheshire root, but still with the missing link.

1881 in Rhuddlan, Flintshire

Benjamin Littler 60 - born Holywell, miller & merchant
Mary Littler 68
C. Littler Buckingham 5
Elizabeth A. Roberts 23
Hannah Jones 25
Robert Davies 38 - born Mostyn, shipowner


There are Littlers in the censuses born in Mostyn in the 1860s. And yet no Littlers *in* Mostyn. Benjamin Littler and family were in Greenfield in 1851. I assume that's not far off?

There is a Benjamin in Manchester in 1891 born 1863 in Mostyn. Son/grson of Benjamin 1821? And there are other possible children.

There are also women who are Littlers by marriage who were born in Mostyn, whose husbands weren't , interestingly.

Benjamin is a miller in Uchglan Cwm in 1841 and is in Greenfield with his family in 1851. But nowhere in 1861 and 1871.


Yeah, here we are, the dreaded mistranscription hit them in both 61 and 71.

1861 Abergele
Benjamin Sittler 38
Mary Sittler 44
Emma Blinestone 20
(daughter Mary from 1851 not present)

1871 Ryl
Benjamin Sittler 48
Mary Sittler 56
Mary Jane Sittler 32
Ellen Williams 23
Mary Williams 20
Owen Williams 23


Phew. But no Robert Davies present.

This one is interesting as with grandparents

1851 census - household transcription
Person: DAVIES, Robert
Address: Kings Bench

DAVIES, David Head Married M 63 1788 Shoemaker
Holywell
Flintshire
DAVIES, Margaret Wife Married F 62 1789
Conway
Carnarvonshire
DAVIES, Ruth Daughter Unmarried F 22 1829
Whitford
Flintshire
DAVIES, Robert Grand Son M 8 1843 Scholar
Whitford
Flintshire
MEREDITH, Ann Visitor Married F 75 1776
Llansannan
Denbighshire