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My thinking was that unmarried pregnant girls often went elsewhere to give birth. If her aunt Alice Ponsford was living in Sussex I thought it would be a good possibility that she would go there.

Appreciate your thoughtfulness but if I had ordered a Certificate with a check on it that mother was "Mabel" if it was wrong they would take the £7 but then refund £4 as they do not produce the Certificate so not too many pounds.

However, I had missed the fact that there was an Alice Street living in East Preston on 1911 census. She could not have been in two places at once.

Must say Certificates seem to be taking a great deal longer to arrive than the 2/3 days as used to be the case last year. Perhaps they've cut back on staff.

Think we may have to leave this one there then. Your help much appreciated.

Regards
Jeanie

Hi Jeanie,

Not sure about the birth in East Preston, if you look at my post yesterday at 20.19 you will see that there is a Alice Street living in East Preston in 1911, I just don't want you wasting your .... (was going to say pennies, but it's pounds!!)

I'm really not sure which birth I would go for, Mabel could have made it easier for us and added Ponsford to her name!!! How inconvient of her.



Dee x

Sorry to say think you may have been getting as confused as I was. Alice was the daughter of Mabel who married William Burkart. Think she is very probably the one you found the birth of in E.Preston - which is in the Worthing area. Think although she was shown as Alice Burkart on the census she was born before Mabel married William and therefore registered in the name of Street as suggested. Perhaps to be sure I should invest in Birth Certificate (before price rise!)

Jeanie,

I've had a good look about, Eileen and Hilda married in Essex... unfortunately I can't pinpoint a marriage for Alice.

I've had a play around with some births but not come up with anything... sorry.



Dee x

Hi Jeanie,

I think little Alice would most possibly have been born in 1904... so I'm really not sure which her birth registration would be. I can't see that she married as a Burkart so I think I'll have a dig about and check were Eileen and Hilda married and see if i can see a marriage for Alice Street, this may give us a better name to work with.... hopefully middle intials??


Dee x

Just took a look back at previous replies. Mabel in Margate, Kent on 1901 census. Also Alice Ponsford in Eastbourne Sussex on 1891 census and Brighton, Sussex on 1901. I see the Alice born in E. Preston Sussex was in 1905 so looks good!!!

I had prepared in draft what I was going to post before I saw your last reply. I'll post it anyway and see what you think:

Took a bit of studying all that info.

Records office board result from BrummieJan:

BURKART, William Head Married M 30 1881 House Painter London Marylebone
BURKART, Mabel Wife Married 3 years F 34 1877 London St Johns Wood
BURKART, Eileen Daughter F 1 1910 London Kilburn
BURKART, Alice Daughter F 6 1905 London Kilburn

Registration District:
Paddington Sub District:
Paddington North
Address: 8 Carlton Mews Maida Vale S W County: London

Cannot find a birth for an Alice under either name, only -

Births Sep 1909
BURKART Eileen Mabel Hendon - that ties in.

Births Dec 1905
STREET Ethel Ancella Hendon - maybe Alice was the name the family called her rather than the one she was registered under.

Only other two I found - area makes them unlikely.
-----------------------------------
Births Jun 1905
Street Lilian Mabel Marylebone

Births Mar 1906
Burkart Irene Winifred Marylebone

Any thoughts on that. Really appreciate the efforts you are making on this one.

Jeanie

Hi Jeanie,

saw the 1911 census posted by Jan..... looks good? Next question anything to do with finding Alice's birth?

Only possibles if she is registered under Street are;

Births Jun 1904 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Street Alice Dudley 6c 119
Street Alice Ashton 8d 570

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1904 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STREET Alice Elizabeth E. Preston 2b 319

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STREET Alice Mary K C Wandsworth 1d 687
STREET Alice Maud Edmonton 3a 689



Trying to rule some out with the 1911 census;

HOUSEHOLD STREET ALICE F 1904 7 Dudley Staffordshire
HOUSEHOLD STREET ALICE F 1904 7 Aston Warwickshire
HOUSEHOLD STREET ALICE F 1905 6 East Preston Sussex
HOUSEHOLD STREET ALICE MARY KATE COLLINS F 1906 5 Wandsworth London


So at the mo that just leaves Alice Maud born in Edmonton, but I just have a gut feeling that it's not her???!!???




Dee x

Hi again BatMansDaughter

I've been out but just came back on to see whether I had an answer. Shouldn't have been surprised to see you had found me again.

Thanks so much for all the info. You can guess what I'm going to put next I expect.

I'll have to study this for a while to get it all clear in my mind but have no doubt you have come up with the goods again.

Hope you enjoy your weekend.

Regards
Jeanie

I can see Hilda Burkart and Eileen Mabel Burkarts marriages but I don't see one for Alice Burkart.


Dee x

And another daughter;

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1913 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burkart Hilda Street Marylebone 1a 887



Dee x

I wonder if Alice Burkart was born before Mabel married to William and is therefore regsitered under the surname of Street?

There is a chap on the records office board who is offering to do 1911 look ups..... I think I would ask him to look at the census and see what it states?


Dee x

Doing a general free check on the 1911 census shows that this Mabel was born in St Johns Wood and married approx. 1908;

HOUSEHOLD BURKART MABEL F 1877 34 Paddington London

With;

HOUSEHOLD BURKART ALICE F 1905 6 Paddington London
HOUSEHOLD BURKART EILEEN F 1910 1 Paddington London
HOUSEHOLD BURKART WILLIAM M 1881 30 Paddington London



Dee x

I think this is Mabel, the image does state STREET;

1901 England Census
about Mabel L E Strut
Name: Mabel L E Strut
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: St Johns Wood, London, England

Civil parish: Margate
Ecclesiastical parish: Margate St Pauls
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Thanet
Sub-registration district: Margate
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 224




And her marriage?

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BURKART William Marylebone 1a 1297
EDWARDS Edward William F Marylebone 1a 1297
Frankenberg-Edwards Edward William Marylebone 1a 1297
Shannon Annie Lennox Marylebone 1a 1297
Street Mabel Lucy E Marylebone 1a 1297




Dee x

1891 England Census
about Mabel L Street
Name: Mabel L Street
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Female
Where born: St Johns Wood, London, England

Civil parish: Willesden
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Hendon
Sub-registration district: Willesden
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Street 47
Emily Street 35
Mabel L Street 18
Edward M Street 45 >>> Witness from 1st marriage!
Mary Dalton 7 >>>> Neice
Edward T Morrison 30


Mabels birth registration;

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Mabel Lucy Street
Name: Mabel Lucy Street
Year of Registration: 1872
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Hampstead
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 589



So little Mabel was born before Emily Street (nee Ponsford ) died



Dee x

1881 England Census
about Henry Street
Name: Henry Street
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emily
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Mary Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 4 Richmond Place
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Clerk On Railway

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 39
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Street 38
Emily Street 23 Born Dalston, Middlesex... too young to be Emily Ponsford?
Mabel Street 8
Wm. Street 41
Matilda Baker 64


Henrys 2nd marriage to another Emily;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Henry Street
Name: Henry Street >>> Widower!!! Occupation; Clerk
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Spouse Name: Emily Dalton
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Sep 1878
Parish: St Mary, Stoke Newington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: William Street
Spouse Father Name: Charles Dalton




So little Mabel is too old to be the 2nd Emilys daughter.... meaning that she is descended from Emily Ponsford!!!



Dee x

Hi Jeanie,

Just checking with Henry Street;

1851 England Census
about Edward M Street
Name: Edward M Street
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Lucy
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Pancras
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Somers Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 76
Household Members: Name Age
William Street 47
Lucy Street 43
Emma M A Street 12
Henry Street 8 Born 1843 Prciadilly, Middlesex
Edward M Street 6 >>> Witness on marriage


1871 England Census
about Henry Street
Name: Henry Street
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Lucy
Gender: Male
Where born: St Georges, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Somers Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 425
Household Members: Name Age
Lucy Street 63
William Street 31
Henry Street 28
Saling Godfried 70
Katherine Godfried 55


Unmarried, railway Clerk...... so this ties in with the marriage details.




Dee x

Is anybody out there? Nudge.

You lucky people - out having a good time? I'll probably nudge it up again later.

This family has proved so confusing. Have been trying to get things straight in my head - think I need help to do so!

1871 census - I assume that Mary Braico (should be Briaris) is the head of the family and that therefore first niece mentioned should read Emily - not Ellen.

1872 marriage between Emily and Henry Street must be right as Alice K. is witness. Spouse given on that marriage as Henry Street (father - William Street).

The 1881 census found above shows an Emily Street but the husband is William.

I've found a Henry Street wife Emily on 1881 in Wales both born Middlesex but think that fairly unlikely to be same couple.

Heart sinks - went to look on bmd now I know I'm looking for death of an Emily STREET between 1871 and 1881. There are six - the following one the most likely.

If that is her it means it's the end of the line. Maybe you'll sigh with relief after the fiasco with the two Henrys born 1819 in Devon.

Deaths Jun 1873
Street Emily 22 Kensington

May be a bad time to post this - Easter preparations and all but thought I'd better get it on the thread while it is fresh in my mind. I'll nudge it up tomorrow if everyone is busy just now.

Jeanie

And children too. I'm running out of flattering things to say to you! Please take it as read.

Jeanie