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in answer to your question :
...If he was born 1893 why do yo have him in 1891 census on your ancestry tree?..

I do not have this recorded on my ancestory tree...lol
He was not born...lol

thank you all for your help

Who were the witness to his marriage in 1915 and what address is listed for Frederick?

Rose

In both of these records the father is just listed as William:

Name: Frederick John Smith
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Humm
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Apr 1915
Parish: St Mark, Victoria Park
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Smith - labourer
Spouse Father Name: Robert Humm

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederic John Smith Name: Frederic John Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1893
Baptism Date: 30 Mar 1893
Father's name: William Smith
Mother's name: Emma Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney

But yet the corresponding certs you have state Edward William?


Rose

Marriage to Winnie?

Marriages Jun 1932
Coleman Winnie M Smith Hackney 1b 753 Smith Frederick J Coleman Hackney 1b 753 Smith Frederick J Wright Hackney 1b 753 Wright Winnie M Smith Hackney 1b 753

Listed under Wright and Coleman because she was married before.

Rose

Hi Christine,

Was the birth certificate you have for Frederick one that was handed down to you, or did you order it recently?

Again, was the knowledge that he was born in Haggerstone handed down to you? Otherwise, how do you know that's where he was born?

Can you be sure you have the correct birth certificate? As has been mentioned a couple of times above - on his 1915 marriage certificate to Elizabeth Humm, it gives his father's name as William, not Edward.

This certificate is online on Ancestry.

I have found that often when records do not seem to make sense it is because a wrong turning has been made. Especially so with Smiths.

As I said before you may need to take a step backwards to confirm the right family.

Name: Frederick John Smith
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Humm
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Apr 1915
Parish: St Mark, Victoria Park
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Smith - labourer
Spouse Father Name: Robert Humm boot maker
Address for both23 Candy street
witnesses William Charles Leary
Elizabeth Searle

The address on this baptism matches with your posting on the 24th

There is a baptism 30 march 1893
for

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederic John Smith Name: Frederic John Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1893
Baptism Date: 30 Mar 1893
Father's name: William Smith
Mother's name: Emma Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney

father is a gas fitter

address looks like 3 newing yard

I think this could be Fredericks brother who probly died young.


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederick Smith
Name:Frederick Smith
Record Type:Baptism
Estimated Birth Date:abt 1886
Baptism Date:30 Apr 1886
Father's name:William Smith
Mother's name:Emma Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union:Shoreditch St James
Borough:Hackney

Address is 1 New Inn Street

I still do not think the Emma Crowe marriage is yours. Neither parents nor occupations match.

Assuming that the smith Humm marriage is correct and not getting anywhere with Frederick I decided to search for one of the witnesses at that wedding.

William Charles Leary


British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
about William Charles Leary
Name:William Charles Leary
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1882
Age at enlistment:32
Birth Parish:Stepney
Birth County:London
Document Year:1914
Regimental Number:8069
Regiment Name:R F A D
Number of images:6

In answer to the question on residence he says he has lived at his father's house for more than 3 years
23 Candy Street Old Ford

Ah looks like he is connected to the Humm family

1911 census - household transcription
Person: LEARY, William
Address: 34 Appian Road Bow
LEARY, Edward Charles Head Widower M 78 1833 Spitafields
LEARY, William Son Married M 31 1880 Wood Barker Stepney
LEARY, Eliza Daughter In Law Married F 40 1871 Stepney
HUMM, William Son Single M 23 1888 Cork Cutter Bethnal Green
HUMM, Lena Daughter Single F 21 1890 Basket Maker Fruit Bethnal Green
HUMM, John Son Single M 18 1893 Trunk Maker Bethnal Green
HUMM, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 16 1895 Basket Maker Fruit Bethnal Green
LEARY, Florence Daughter Of Head Single F 24 1887 Gum Picker Bethnal Green

1891 census - household transcription
Person: LEARY, William
Address: 23, Sidney Street, Bethnal Green, London, North East Bethnal Green
LEARY, Edward Head Married M 42 1849 Silk Spinner
Spitalfield
LEARY, Elizabeth Wife Married F 51 1840
Bethnal Green
LEARY, John Son Single M 21 1870 Tinman
Stepney
LEARY, George Son M 19 1872 Umbrella Frame Maker
Stepney
LEARY, William Son M 10 1881 Scholar
Bethnal Green
LEARY, Florance Daughter F 6 1885 Scholar
Bethnal Green
He married Eliza Humm widow 10 07 1910 so would be Elizabeth's step father

British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
about William Charles Leary
Name:William Charles Leary
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1883
Age at enlistment18
Birth Parish:Stepney
Birth County:Middlesex
Document Year:1901
Regimental Number:57657
Regiment Name:Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery
Number of images:8


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Charles Leary
Name:William Charles Leary
Age:30
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1880
Spouse Name:Eliza Humm
Spouse Age:39
Record Type:Marriage
Marriage Date:19 Jul 1910
Parish:St Paul, Old Ford
County:London
Borough:Tower Hamlets
Father Name:Edward Leary

Spouse Father Name:Edward Higgs

The only exact match for the details you have for Frederick is On the Tunstall family tree on Ancestry so no exact match in records.

i will ask you again how you reached your information?

HUGE APOLOGIES TO ALL...!!..I am so so sorry, Frederick John Smith's father is William Smith ....on Fredericks marraige cert it states age 23yrs living at 23 Candy Street( his father is not dec'd) it states his father as William Smith Labourer. On Frederick John birth cert it states born 13/3/1893 Haggerston...his father is William Smith (Gasfitter Labourer ) and his mother as Emma Smith formally Crowe of 3 New Inn Yard.Emma Smith Shoredithch Infermary Hoxton Street Haggerston....oh dear...maybe I have to start again with looking ....once again so sorry for all this confusion...but a huge THANK YOU for all your time and to you all for being so helpful....I only hope I can start afresh with all this...!!

Hi , ...just had to give this a rest for a while...I was getting sooooo confused...lol...but thank you for your help..I can confirm that Frederick is my grandfather. The info you gave reagarding Candy Street Old Ford Bow E3....all checks out...YIPEE...!! Everything is acccurate regarding the Hummsand Leary's
Now I just need to confirm where Frederick and his father William are in the 1911 and 1901 census... (he deserted my mum when she was 11yrs old ) and she lived with the Humms and Learys). Very little is known of him, but he just appears to be very elusive. Your help is greatly appreciated, kind regards Chris

Both Patchem and I posted a possible 1911 where Frederick is a timber porter.

Hi, thank you for replying...just need to find Frederick With his mother and father William and Emma Smith in the 1901 census, Frederick John would have been 8yrs old..... so would have only been a child....once again thank you so much for your kind help it is really appreciated, Chris :-)

Did you check out this one

I think this could be Fredericks brother who probly died young.


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederick Smith
Name:Frederick Smith
Record Type:Baptism
Estimated Birth Date:abt 1886
Baptism Date:30 Apr 1886
Father's name:William Smith
Mother's name:Emma Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union:Shoreditch St James
Borough:Hackney

Address is 1 New Inn Street

Hi, thank you for replying and thank you for your help....my guess is that it is quite likley his brother that died.......Frederick John Smith was born at 3 New Inn Yard 1893...but I do not have access to the 1901 to check out 1 New Inn Street census and I guess by then he may possibley have moved to the Bow area. Frederick gives his birthplace as Haggerston. I do apolgise for causing you so much trouble....but I have so little information regarding Frederick John Smith and I cannot check the 1901 census...I feel sure he would be around the Shoreditch. Bethnal Green and Bow area.....thank you so much for your help....kind regards Chris :-)

Trouble is there are so many Frederick Smiths and also Fred Smith
and F Smiths.
That is providing he is not calling himself something else.
And providing he was not somewhere else.
And if he got counted.
I was looking for someone this week and found his wife in hospital and his children working away from home but he is no where to be found.
I have looked but have not found them yet.

Sometimes you have to search around all the other players and venues before you find the revealing piece of information.