Find Ancestors

Yes he was registered as Cyril Cross, but doesn't mean he knew that.

See what Dennis thinks and get back to us.

Margaret
I am going to ask Dennis if his Dad ever mentioned he had a brother. I will get back to you.
Just a thought, Percy is named as Cross on his birth cert, wonder if Cyril was too.

Well a prelimary search for Cyril Matthews born 1902 has led me nowhere.

FRIENDS OUT THERE, CAN YOU HELP?

I think it would be interesting to know what happened to Percy's siblings as it may turn up more extended family for Dennis. He is 77 next month and not in the best of health. This family tree search has really cheered him, I haven't seen him as animated in a long time! If you could help me with this that would be wonderful.
I am about to embark on my husbands mother's side of the family which should prove easier than Dennis's as they are not scattered around the country. :o)
Thanks again
Kim x

Hi Kim

I know I won't have been on my own doing this, others would have come forward at once if I'd got stuck or got anything obviously wrong.

On behalf of all of us, it has given us the greatest of pleasure to research this family for you, especially knowing that your father in law might be now reassured about his own dad's early life with relatives.

No, I can't find a suitable death of John Cross in those years in any of the towns we know him to have been in. So we won't know if he died young or the story wasn't true. Guessing tells me that his mother Clara tried to make the relationship work and didn't succeed, and left him with her cousin where he was happy, with his brother, and with cousin's children of similar ages.

The war years then intervened and maybe it wasn't possible for his mum to travel, and time just went on.

Would it be worth researching what happened to Percy John's brother, and maybe his half sister?

Margaret

I found something odd. It states on Percy's marriage cert that his father John is deceased, but I can find no record of his death between the dates of Percy's birth and marriage 1900 - 1924.
I wonder if Percy was led to believe his father was dead, when in fact he was actually alive? This leads me to believe he possibly had no contact with John.

Margaret
I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the research you have done on my behalf. I am very grateful.
Percy John and his wife Sarah Roberts were my husbands paternal grandparents. Their son Dennis, my father-in-law, never knew anything of his Father's background, only that he thought Percy came from Gloucester. He'll be delighted with all this new information and it will be a comfort to him knowing his Father lived with relatives rather than strangers.
Now I have to piece it all together so it makes sense for him. Wish me luck!
Thanks again, I'm forever in your debt
Kind regards
Kim Cross

I wish you good luck with sorting out all that lot! But it shows that your Percy John was definitely brought up with family, which might be quite reassuring to you to know. And it seems that so were several other members of his family/ancestors. So they don't sound a bad lot, do they?

They must have had their reasons.

It would be nice to know what relation Percy John is to you, if you wouldn't mind telling us. I say "us" cos although I seem to have done all the legwork, I know there are other people reading it and probably working on it too.

Let us know if you need any clarification or further help.

Margaret

Ah, yet another tree on Ancestry has Alice Annis, daughter of James Annis (1849-1929) and Elizabeth MATTHEWS.

So, Elizabeth Matthews must be the sister of Clara Matthews' father, Elijah. Did I post that bit? I can't remember. Parents of Clara were Elijah Matthews 1849 and Ellen Marfell 1850.

1901 England Census
about Alice Annis
Name: Alice Annis
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Dau Adopted (Adopted)
Gender: Female
Where born: Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: East Dean
Ecclesiastical parish: Woodside St Stephen
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Westbury on Severn
Sub-registration district: East Dean
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
James Annis 52
Harriett Annis 47 (must be second wife)
James Annis 22
Sidney Annis 15
Alice Annis 24
Ivon Bartlett 10 months
Thomas Annis 9
Edith Annis 13

Transcription is wrong again. It says Alice Annis is adopted daughter. It is Ivor (Ivon?) Bartlett who is adopted. Interesting that Clara Matthew's mother's second marriage was to a Bartlett. I haven't worked that one out yet!!!!

So here's Elijah and Elizabeth together:

1861 England Census
about Elijah Matthews
Name: Elijah Matthews
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Elijah
Mother's Name: Harriet
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: East Dean
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Gloucestershire
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Westbury On Severn
Sub-registration district: Newnham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 35
Household Members: Name Age
Elijah Matthews 40
Harriet Matthews 36
Enoch Matthews 18
Thomas Matthews 16
Eliza Matthews 14
Elijah Matthews 12
Elizabeth Matthews 9
Hannah Matthews 6
Emma Matthews 2

Here's their marriage:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Thomas Sumner
Name: Thomas Sumner
Year of Registration: 1902
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 611 (click to see others on page)

Spouse Alice Annis.

No, I can't find John in 1901 or 1911. At least not around the towns where he had relatives or was born/worked.

As you say, there are two lots of relatives from both Lancashire and Gloucestershire getting together, and moving to Pontefract. The families obviously knew that Clara and John were not married, so recorded the children in her maiden name.

I'd like to find out how Alice Sumner comes to be a cousin of Clara Matthews. I can find no marriage for Thomas and Alice to determine her maiden name. But it would be on the marriage cert of one of their children. But hold on, I bet her maiden name is Annis:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Thomas Sumner Annis
Name: Thomas Sumner Annis
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 294 (click to see others on page)

This apparently implies they were not married at his birth, but the father acknowledged his paternity.

And:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Frederick John Sumner
Name: Frederick John Sumner
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 299 (click to see others on page)

This implies they were married.

So Clara and Alice must have gone North, met their two fellas, and stayed in touch for at least a while.

Even though incomplete, what it implies to me is that Percy John was actually with family of some sort, rather than with strangers, and the fact that Frederick John Sumner was a witness at his wedding implies that he liked the family. I could be totally wrong of course!

Yes the site was running slow for me too. Been out to the pub quiz and lost miserably, so just having a bit of therapy before bed.

I think the Ancestry tree had John born 1875, so I started with that, but seems it was probably 1876. No obvious birth is jumping out at me for him. No, I haven't found him in 1901, perhaps didn't look in 1911 or perhaps too many to look at. Will have a go now. You can only access the 1911 through the official website or Find My Past.

Hi Meg
Does John show up in the 1911 census? I don't have access to it on GR. I found him age 14 on 1991 census as being born 1877 which tallied with what you found, but there is no record of him on 1901 census.
Thanks

Please forgive my late replies, the site is running very slowly at my end.
I have looked back through your posts and I cannot find reference to John's birth year?
This is all very fascinating, a lot of skeletons coming to light lol

ps I will be away from the PC for the next hour or so.
Thanks a million for your help

Here's her sister in 1891 - note she's described as a Boarder, when she is a step-daughter.

1891 England Census
about Lucy Matthews
Name: Lucy Matthews
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Drybrook; East Dean

Civil parish: Ruardean
Ecclesiastical parish: Ruardean
Town: Ruardean
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Ross
Sub-registration district: Ross
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Bartlett 51
Ellen Bartlett 40
Lucy Matthews 13
Joseph W Bartlett 1

It's becoming very intriguing. So now we have a brother for Percy.
Looking through all the info you have posted there are a lot of connections leading back to gloucester, even the family Percy ended up with in Pontefract.

Ah, she follows John up North:

1901 England Census
about Clara Matthews
Name: Clara Matthews
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Drybrook, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Fleetwood
Ecclesiastical parish: Fleetwood St Peter
Town: Fleetwood
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Fylde
Sub-registration district: Fleetwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 12
Household Members: Name Age
James Turnbull 56
Elizabeth Turnbull 39
Charles Turnbull 25
Lillia Turnbull 13
Gilbert Turnbull 10
Elsie Turnbull 7
Lottie Turnbull 3
Clara Matthews 26

This is Clara in 1881:

1881 England Census
about Elijah Matthews
Name: Elijah Matthews
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Westbury On Severn - East Dean
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address: Hawthorns
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Coal Miner Unemployed

Registration district: Westbury On Severn
Sub-registration district: Newnham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Elijah Matthews 31
Ellen Matthews 29
Clara Matthews 6
Lucy Matthews 3

Hi Kim

The Ancestry tree started me off cos it has comments about the family. I took John's year of birth from that, and it seems to tie in with what else I have found.

I can't remember if I found Clara in 1901, but am going to look at her side now. The 1911 I've just posted gives her year of birth as 1875 - if indeed it's the right Clara, cos I've not found her elsewhere.

It seems that somehow she met up with John and named him as the father and pretended that she was married to him, but there is no apparent marriage. The Ancestry tree reckons he was back in Fleetwood at the time of Percy John's birth. But he must have nipped back down South shortly afterwards:

Births Jun 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cross Cyril Westbury S. 6a 307

People used the term Boarder for all sorts of things, including relatives, so you can't read too much into it - he seems to be Ann/Nancy's grandson (but of course wouldn't be William's).

BARTLETT, Ellen Head Widow F 60 1851 Westonn Under Kenyard Ross Herefordshire VIEW
MATTHEWS, Clara Daughter Single F 36 1875 Dony Brook Gloucestershire VIEW
MATTHEWS, Marjorie Gertrude Granddaughter F 0 (2 MONTHS) 1911 Hope Mansell Nr Ross Herefordshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
15223 Reference:
RG14PN15223 RG78PN921 RD323 SD2 ED1 SN23

Registration District:
Westbury on Severn Sub District:
East Dean EnumerationDistrict:
1 Parish:
East Dean

Address:
Palmers Hill Pontshill Ross County:
Gloucestershire