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Hi there!

From my own research of my Coopers around similar areas, it is pretty obvious from all the info on this thread that the families mentioned here were Romany gypsies. Were you aware of this?

The trades of hawker and horsedealer were very common as were the unusual names, I also have a Nelson. It also explains the high death rate among the children as it was a difficult life, especially when they were travelling and living in tents, probably poorly nourished, poor hygiene, cold etc.

I think too that sometimes, because of this, if a relative was living in a house, children may have been given into their care for a period of time while parents were travelling.

If you google Romany gypsies there are some interesting sites that show the lifestyle of the time which I found very helpful.

Denise x

Here is the 1911 census for Edward Shorter and Jessie - note they state they have been married 22 years (so they married approx 1888/9 if you want to search that marriage):

SHORTER, William Head Married M 45 1866 Hawker Sevenoaks Kent VIEW
SHORTER, Jessie Wife Married
22 years F 25 1886 Brighton Sussex VIEW
SHORTER, Mary Daughter Single F 16 1895 Deptford VIEW
SHORTER, Edward Son Single M 14 1897 Deptford VIEW

They also state on the original that they have had11 children from their marriage, of whom only 4 survive!! By the way, that birth date of 1886 for Jessie comes from the fact that, on the original, her age looks to be "25" ... but unless she was married at 3 ... ?!

Now here is a new mystery - just been looking at the wedding banns again and I see a witness is Owen Carter so have looked him up in 1901 census - he is Jessie's brother b. 1893 Paddock wood Kent and another brother Edward b 1897 Deptford. The Head of family is William Shorter b 1865 Carman b Sevenoaks Kent and his wife is Jessie Shorter b 1867 Brighton Sussex and yet the Carters are put down as Daughter and Sons. Theyh are living at 26 Hale Street St Paul Deptford and Jessie and Nelson married at Christ Church St Paul Deptford.

Looked up deaths of Edwards - Edward Carter died age 30 Greenwich 1899 1d 726. 1891 Census Edward was alive b 1867 b Deptford and Jessie Carter wife b. Brighton and Jessie daughter 5 months old. So Jessie Carter remarried after death of Edward to a William Shorter.

The pieces are going together.

According to family gossip Nelson definitely went into the army at 15 lying about his age and he did this with one thing in mind, his big passion, to become a boxer.

It seems to me that every 10 years they just reinvent themselves, make themselves younger and change places.

In 1901 Sarah is in Battersea with sons Job and Frank (Francis) who are both Horse dealers. She is a Hawker and now shows herself born 1833 Uxbridge! The 2 sons birthplaces are unchanged at Windsor and Egham respectively tho they are now 28 (1873)and 26 (1875)

I have found Job's birth at Windsor Mar Q 2c 441 This cert would give his parents names

By 1911 26 Stanhope Street was inhabited by two families - the Busseys and the Walshams. So no luck there.

Just re-read over this thread and realised (duh) that Nelson-at-the-barracks states that he is single in the 1911 census. Does this mean we have the wrong Nelson? Or is he just fibbing?!

Christine

Jessie was living in the same street at No. 26 Stan Hope Street in 1909. Her father Edward is put as a Hawker and so is Nelson's father William as a hawker.

Will be back in about 1 1/2 hours.

Thanks for everything you are doing. I really appreciate it.

Anne

The registration District for Egham is Windsor berkshire
Thereis a birth Nelson Cooper 1892 Sep Q Windsor 2c 477 but since your Nelson is shown as 2 in 1891 pes this cant be him

No worries - I also need to get back to my garden as I have left a bonfire burning ... hope it hasn't gone wild while I've been engrossed in this! If you could just let me know Jessie's address at the time of the marriage banns I can check it on the 1911 census and see if it's where she is working , lodging or similar.

Sorry dont know much about Jessie or Alverton Street or Edwards job.

Regarding children the only one I havent researched so far was the oldest she was definitely a Mary - family say that when Jessie was in hospital for the child Queen Mary came around when she was born and that is why they named her Mary.

There was an Edward b Dec 1914 Greenwich 1d 1867
Martha C b Jan-Mar 1916 1d1778
Jessie H b March 1918 Greenwich 1d 1273 she died young and
Nelson C b Dec 20 Greenwich 1d 1817 (now I know Nelson had a Nelson and he had a Nelson - and I thought it would be an unusual name)

Christine look I am sorry about this but I have a hair appointment at 3 and must leave by 2.45 as we are going on a tinsel turkey weekend but will tune in as soon as I come back.

Will be around for another 15 mins.

Anne

And was that her address?

Yes definitely was Edward

If her dad was by any chance a hotel cook, I've got him in Greenwich ... but no Jessie with this Edward. The address is 16 Alverton Street, Deptford.

Just going to make a quick cuppa ...

Did Nelson and Jessie have any children by the time of the 1911 census? If so, do you know their name(s)? It would help the search - I am having no luck at present.

I havent done any research on Jessie Carter so far but I am near enough sure it said father Edward on the marriage banns. Will just pop back to Ancestry and see if I can find it

Sorry, just realised I never confirmed that the address on the 1911 census was indeed 54 Stanhope Street, Deptford.

At the 1911 census the parents state they have been married 22 full years which would make it 1888 or 1889 - were they unmarried when they had Nelson. or newly married and so busy trying to make a living that it was easier to leave him with his grandma?

I have widened Jessie's birth range to 5 years either side but all the married Jessie Coopers I can find are with their husbands. Do you have her parents' names so I can look them up and see if she is there with them and has therefore been listed or transcribed as a Carter instead of a Cooper?

I dont know if it helps but remembering that William is on the 1901 census but is dead by the marriage in 1909 I looked for deaths between these dates.

I found just 2 possibilities both have birth circa 1861 - first Camberwell 1906 and the second Camberwell 1907 which of course is extremely close to Deptford so I thought this might be right.

Replying to your four possibilities - the marriage of Nelson is absolutely correct there is no doubt about it - the children all have mother Carter and family know them all or of them.

Walkabout is a possibility.

The family have nothing to do with him looks the most obvious as his gran is looking after him at only 2 years of age.

No 4 - the marriage banns definitely say father William and the address is 54 Stan Hope Street, St. Paul Deptford which is the address on 1901 census with William and Phyllis as the parents. The interesting thing here is that I found the exact birth dates of all three children and the only time that there could be a possible extra child would have been 1889 or 1891 possibly 92.