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Thank you Janey and Maureen for your interest in all this.
I am most delighted to have idled an hour or two away with you to get precisely where I started from with the Elderfields.

Oh but you did find Eliza and probable George Elderfield in disguise Janey,so that is added to the file.
Just a few odds and ends to tidy up on Hubbys side for my friend now.

I may be back here asking about Duddens and Cook/Corks/Cocks yet,who knows!
viv

Yeesh, for *me* to forget the Anglo-Boer War? Where Rossiter McCock turned up??

http://www.britishmedals.us/files/iye.htm

Only one Elderfield in the IY, a Francis.

It could well have Maureen,I always forget about that,and heres me with a great uncle called "Mafeking" born 1901 as well.

I wonder about the Boer War as a scenario for Leonard in 1901?

(well it COULD have happened...)

Maureen

I did think about Daisy being an over generous woman with her charms,but didnt want to interupt your line of thought!

F.E in hospital,may well be,but all 4 took out a block booking do you think?
And with the names that they have surley ONE would have shown somewhere on 1911.
But NO ,par for the course for me on this family.


I know where Flo and co are,
They have gone to stay wherever it was that their father Leonard was in 1901.

Lilian and Ivy are both likely daughters of Daisy, don't you think? She was born 1886.

How about she was in a hospital or something?

INSTITUTION E F sex:F 1905 6 Billericay Essex

That's the only F.E. born 1902-1908 in the census.

On a search for people with first name starting with, randomly, M, in a household with an F.E. in Billericay ... there are three pages, all but a very few identified by initials only.

florences siblings pre 1911.

Flo 1904

Redvers leonard/leonard redvers elderfield 1906

lilian Freda 1907 march q?,never heard of in this family they say,so maybe died young.

Eugenio Humbert 1907 dec q ,known as Humbert
Possible to squeeze 2 births in there!

Madeline mary 1909.


On 1911 Leonard and Florence Elderfield say 4 kids born and 4 living.

Maybe they just didnt add their names to the census?

Good grief, I think I've done well figuring out the second marriage and one birth, now that you challenge. How would one know anything about the second unless one knew what one were looking for??

As for "her married name should have been other than it is,and proved it,(her father in law was illegit with made up surname and father by his mother)", just tell her my mum has been living with it for some years now. ;) I wonder whether it goes like this every time now: What's your maiden name? Monck ... er, Hill ... er, Monck ... . Not to mention that I've informed her her great-great-grandmother was an 'Oare!

Yep Florence M first marriage 1922 to Gibbens,divorced him after 2 kids and remarries to my friends dad ,and then has 2 kids in the autumn years of her life.
Their playground was longleat wildlife park ,before it had wildlife in it.

Well connected friends I have see.

Have you found the oddity of my friends sisters birth yet.
Just recieved her LONG birth cert for her,def Florences, and correct father on it though.PHEW!

Well, that Ivy seems to have neither married nor died (the Ivy K and Ivy L who married are both accounted for in births), unless she married verrrry young:

Marriages Sep 1919
Elderfield Ivy Letts Croydon 2a 978
Letts William J Elderfield Croydon 2a 97

Four births to that marriage, 1920-1938. Could be!


Your Florence M married in Bromley 1922?
Interesting that the only other Florence M marriage was in Croydon 1922.

Def says Ivy on image,she will never believe its her mum,there have been sooo many anomilies?in this family that one more will topple the reasoning I think.
When they dont see it for themselves it is very hard for people to get their heads round.
And after I found that her married name should have been other than it is,and proved it,(her father in law was illegit with made up surname and father by his mother)I think this may send her screaming to the men in white to take me away

ELDERFIELD, Ivy Granddaughter Single F 8 1903 School Chislehurst Kent

Just phoning to see if Flo had a sister lil.
Cant remember.

Shes not in,nor is her sister,will try later.
But she is with the correct gran isnt she?so I guess its her...

There's no birth of an Ivy Elderfield c1903.

?

Lilian, yes:

Births Mar 1907
ELDERFIELD Lilian Freda Bromley 2a 575

Florence for ref:

Births Sep 1904
ELDERFIELD Florence Maud Bromley 2a 566

Leonard Elderfield in 1901 can go to the same place as Eugen Catarrozzi on the missing 1881.

Florence Maud Elderfield born 1904 kent I would REALLY like to find on 1911 as she is/was Mother to my friend.



NOT with her parents...

ELDERFIELD, Leonard Head Married M 33 1878 Gardener Domestic Mottingham Kent VIEW
ELDERFIELD, Florence Wife Married
8 years F 31 1880 Kensington London VIEW
DONOVAN, Mary Single F 50 1861 Laundress Foots Croy


Address:
3 Slades Cotts Chislehurst

Whatever that1901 census says I dont think its Broctheran.
But could well be George Elderfield masquerading,so I printed it off,just in case.

1911

ELDERFIELD, Eliza Head Married
42 years F 67 1844 Laundress Laundress Mottingham Kent VIEW
ELDERFIELD, Daisy Daughter Single F 22 1889 Charwoman Mottingham Kent VIEW
ELDERFIELD, Ivy Granddaughter Single F 8 1903 School Chislehurst Kent VIEW
ELDERFIELD, Lilani Daughter Single F 4 1907 Chislehurst Kent

Address:
Webbs Cottage West Chislehurst Kent

Eliza's on her own in 1901.

Oh no she isn't. Only according to ancestry's stupid system. She has a daughter Daisy, aged 15, with her, on the image. She shows as widowed, laundress. Hm.

Name: Eliza Elderfield
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Mottingham, Kent, England

Name: Daisy Elderfield
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Mottingham, Kent, England

Civil parish: Chiselhurst


They're both recorded twice by Ancestry; in one household there is only Eliza; in the other there is one Eliza and two Daisys. eeeeeeeeee.


I thought this fellow rather interesting in 1901.

Name: George Broctheran (I'll let you read it - it isn't Elderfield)
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Harriet E
Gender: Male
> Where born: Reading, Berkshire, England
> occupation: jobbing gardener

Name: Harriet E Broctheran
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Jonian Islands Irland of Corfre
- yeah ... Island of Corfe -- Turkey (B.S.)

Civil parish: Dover

Harry??

Harry S ELDERFIELD
Date of departure: 22 December 1911
Port of departure: Liverpool
Passenger destination port: Sydney, Australia
Passenger destination: Sydney, Australia

Date of Birth:
Age:
Marital status: Single
Sex: Male
Occupation: Engineer


Leonard is friends grandad .

Arrrggghhhhh.
I am begining to HATE this family.

Because I also cant find Daughter Florence Elderfield born 1904 in 1911.

And on the 1911 paternal side in 1911 for some reason one of the children(who I KNOW didnt die,but grew up and had children,my friends aunt)has been scratched out and I cant find her either

I now go to cry into my tea.

The rest of the 1891 household for info:

George Elderfield 43 - born Reading, Berkshire (c1848)
Eliza Elderfield 39 - born Mottingham, Kent (c1852)
Leonard Elderfield 13
Harry Elderfield 9 - born Mottingham, Kent (c1882)


I believe they were in suspended animation in 1901.


Harry neither married nor died in England. Might they actually have pulled an Ernest Monck, and emigrated for the 1901 census, and Leonard returned on his own?