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A very dear friend has asked me if I could find out if there was any truth to the tale that her Watkins line is descended from a Lady in waiting to Queen Vic and a court shoemaker that eloped together,supposedly,and changed their name from Perkins to Watkins to avoid being found.
Personally I dont hold out much hope.
The,possible, lady in waiting (name unknown to me)died sometime around 1860/1 as the father of Alfred and Eliza is with a new wife on 1871 I believe,which also fits with family legend as written by a great aunt that was passed to me AFTER I had started looking into it.
This is the 1871 census that I have got back too ,and then things turn murky,let alone trying to find Alfred Charles or Elizas birth to send for.
1871 England Census
about Alfred Watkins
Name: Alfred Watkins
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John >shoemaker
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Devizes
Civil parish: St Martin
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
Town: Hereford
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Hereford City
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 228
Household Members: Name Age
John Watkins 52
Ann Watkins 45
Alfred Watkins 18
Eliza Watkins 14
A slightly different birthplace on 1891 but not far out.
1891 England Census
about Alfred C Watkins
Name: Alfred C Watkins
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Harriet
Gender: Male
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
More to come,please bear with me.
On 1861 I find what I believe to be him and Eliza plus another couple of children in the workhouse,which again I had come to the conclusion it was them BEFORE reading great aunts writtings.
1861 England Census
about Alfred Perkins
Name: Alfred Perkins
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Male
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Civil parish: Devizes St James
Town: Devizes
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage: View image
Registration district: Devizes
Sub-registration district: Devizes
Alfred is with a child called Francis whom I can not find after 1861 and Eliza has Caroline of 2mnths on the same page as her,again no trace after 1861,so presume died.
61 England Census
about Eliza Perkins
Name: Eliza Perkins
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Civil parish: Devizes St James
Town: Devizes
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage: View image
Registration district: Devizes
Sub-registration district: Devizes
***************************************************************
I do hope I have all this down so that it can be understood.I have some possible births for Charles and Eliza under Perkins ,but not under Watkins and I can find no births for Caroline or Francis Perkins/Watkins to see if they may be related also.
I can find no marriage for John and Ann nor any likely previous ones for John Perkins/Watkins.
Basically,,,HELP,,,, please if anyone can.
thanks.
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apologies Viv for this very long list!!!!!
Queen Victoria's Ladies-in-Waiting (shown chronologically by order of appointment)
Mistresses of the Robes:
Harriet, Duchess of Sutherland 1837-1841, 1846-1852, 1853-1858, 1859-1861
Charlotte, Duchess of Buccleuch 1841-1846
Anne, Duchess of Atholl [Athole] 1852-1853
Louise, Duchess of Manchester 1858-1859
Elizabeth, Duchess of Wellington 1861-1868, 1874-1880
Elizabeth, Duchess of Argyll 1868-1870
Anne, Duchess of Sutherland 1870-1874
Elizabeth, Duchess of Bedford 1880-1883
Anne, Duchess of Roxburghe 1883-1885
Louisa, Duchess of Buccleuch 1885-1886, 1886-1892, 1895-1901
appointment vacant Feb.-Aug. 1886
appointment vacant Aug. 1892-July 1895
Acting Mistresses of the Robes:
Elizabeth, Duchess of Bedford 1886
Anne, Dowager Duchess of Atholl [Athole] (jointly with Duchess of Roxburghe) 1892-1895
Anne, Duchess of Roxburghe (jointly with Dowager Duchess of Atholl [Athole]) 1892-1895
Louisa, Countess of Antrim 1894
Ladies of the Bedchamber:
Louisa Emma, Marchioness of Lansdowne 1837-1838
Anna Maria, Marchioness of Tavistock (later Anna Maria,
Duchess of Bedford) 1837-1841
Anne, Countess of Charlemont 1837-1854
Maria, Countess Mulgrave (later Maria, Marchioness of Normanby) 1837-1841
Emma, Baroness Portman 1837-1851
Laura Elizabeth, Countess of Durham 1837-1838
Sarah, Baroness Lyttelton (later Sarah, Dowager Baroness Lyttelton) 1837-1842
Frances, Baroness Barham (later Frances, Countess of
Gainsborough, later still Frances, Dowager Countess of Gainsborough) 1837-1872
Blanche Georgina, Countess of Burlington 1838-1840
Eliza Arden, Marchioness of Breadalbane 1839 (Jan.-July)
Mary, Countess of Sandwich 1839-1842
Carolina Augusta, Countess of Mount Edgcumbe
(later Caroline Augusta, Dowager Countess of Mount Edgcumbe) 1840-1854, 1863-1865
Catherine, Countess of Dunmore 1841-1845
Frances Elizabeth, Viscountess Jocelyn 1841-1867
Susan Georgiana, Countess of Dalhousie 1842 (Jan.-May)
Charlotte, Viscountess Canning 1842-1855
Charlotte, Duchess of Norfolk 1842-1843
Elizabeth, Marchioness of Douro (later Elizabeth,
Duchess of Wellington) 1843-1858
Elizabeth Lucy, Countess of Desart 1845-1864
Jane, Marchioness of Ely (later Jane, Dowager Marchioness of Ely) 1851-1889
Anne, Duchess of Atholl [Athole] (later Anne,
Dowager Duchess of Atholl [Athole]) 1854-1897
Jane, Baroness Churchill (later Dowager Baroness Churchill) 1854-1900
Maria Anne, Baroness Macdonald 1855-1863
Jane Frederica Harriet Mary, Countess of Caledon 1858-1878
Elizabeth Jane, Baroness Waterpark (later Elizabeth Jane,
Dowager Baroness Waterpark) 1864-1890
Susanna Stephania, Duchess of Roxburghe (later Susanna
Stephania, Dowager Duchess of Roxburghe) 1865-1895
Eliza Horatia Frederica, Viscountess Clifden 1867-1872
Blanche Julia, Countess of Mayo 1872-1874
Eliza Amelia, Countess of Erroll (later Eliza Amelia,
Dowager Countess of Erroll) 1873-1901
Julia Janet Georgina, Baroness Abercromby 1874-1885
Ismania Catharine, Baroness Southampton (later Ismania
Catharine, Dowager Baroness Southampton) 1878-1901
Emily Theresa, Baroness Ampthill (later Emily Theresa,
Dowager Baroness Ampthill) 1885-1901
Cecilia Maria Charlotte, Viscountess Downe 1889-1901
Louisa, Countess of Antrim 1890-1901
Edith, Countess of Lytton 1895-1901
Anne Emily, Duchess of Roxburghe 1897-1901
Extra Ladies of the Bedchamber:
Charlotte, Duchess of Norfolk 1843-1870
Emma, Baroness Portman 1851-1865
Carolina Augusta, Countess of Mount Edgcumbe
(later Caroline Augusta, Dowager Countess of Mount Edgcumbe) 1854-1863, 1865-1881
Frances Elizabeth, Viscountess Jocelyn 1867-1880
Eliza Horatia Frederica, Viscountess Clifden (later Lady Stirling) 1872-1896
Frances, Dowager Countess of Gainsborough (previously Frances,
Countess of Gainsborough and previously to that Frances, Baroness Barham) 1873-1885
Blanche Julia, Countess of Mayo (later Blanche Julia,
Dowager Countess of Mayo) 1874-1901
Jane Frederica Harriet Mary, Countess of Caledon 1878-1888
Elizabeth, Duchess of Bedford (later Elizabeth,
Dowager Duchess of Bedford) 1883-1897
Jane, Dowager Marchioness of Ely 1889-1890
Elizabeth Jane, Dowager Baroness Waterpark 1891-1894
Anne Emily, Duchess of Roxburghe 1895-1897
Honorary Lady of the Bedchamber:
Blanche Julia, Countess of Mayo 1872 (Apr.-July)
Women of the Bedchamber:
Honourable Mrs. Brand (afterwards Trevor) 1837-1853
Lady Caroline Barrington 1837-1875
Lady Charlotte Copley (later Lady Copley) 1837-1866
Honourable Mrs. Campbell 1837-1873
Lady Harriet Clive 1837-1841
Frances Mary, Viscountess Forbes 1837-1874
Caroline Mary, Lady Gardiner 1837-1859
Lady Theresa Digby 1837-1856
Honourable Mrs. George Edward Anson (later Honourable
Mrs. George Edward Anson) 1841-1853, 1853-1855
Miss Amelia Matilda Murray 1853-1855
Frances, Viscountess Chewton 1855-1901
Honourable Mrs. Hamilton Gordon (later Honourable
Lady Hamilton Gordon) 1855-1901
Mary, Lady Codrington 1856-1885
Lady Sarah Elizabeth Lindsay (later Honourable Lady Lindsay) 1859-1890
Honourable Mrs. Robert Bruce 1866-1889
Lady Elizabeth Philippa Adeane 1873-1877
Miss Flora Clementina Isabella Macdonald 1874-1897
Honourable Mrs. George Hope 1875-1877
Honourable Mrs. Ferguson 1877-1901
Honourable Horatia Stopford 1877-1901
Lady Cust 1885-1901
Honourable Harriet Lepel Phipps 1889-1901
Honourable Emily Sarah Cathcart 1888-1901
Honourable Ethel Cadogan 1897-1901
Mrs. John Haughton 1899-1901
Extra Women of the Bedchamber:
Miss Mary Anne Davys (later Mrs. Pratt) 1839-1888
Honourable Mrs. Robert Bruce 1862-1866
Lady Augusta Frederica Elizabeth Stanley
(previously Lady Augusta Frederica Elizabeth Bruce) 1863-1876
Lady Charlotte Copley (later Lady Copley) 1866-1875
Honourable Mrs. Charles Grey 1870-1890
Frances Mary, Viscountess Forbes 1874-1877
Lady Elizabeth Biddulph 1877-1901
Honourable Emily Sarah Cathcart 1880-1890
Honourable Mrs. Gerald Wellesley 1882-1901
Miss Ina Erskine McNeill 1888-1895
Mrs. Townshend Wilson 1890-1894
Mrs. Drummond (senior), of Megginch 1891 (Jan. 1-Dec. 22)
Georgina Elizabeth, Lady Cowell 1894-1901
Honourable Caroline Fanny Cavendish 1894-1901
Honourable Mrs. Alaric Grant
(previously Miss Victoria Matilda Susan Baillie) 1895-1901
Honourable Mrs. Bernard Mallet
(previously Miss Marie Adeane) 1895-1901
Honourable Lady Ponsonby 1895-1901
Miss Flora Clementina Isabella Macdonald 1897-1901
Honorary Woman of the Bedchamber:
Honourable Lady Biddulph
(previously Miss Mary Frederica Seymour) 1857-1901
Resident Women of the Bedchamber:
Miss Mary Anne Davys 1837-1839
Lady Augusta Frederica Elizabeth Bruce 1861-1863
Miss Ina Erskine McNeill 1888-1895
Maids of Honour:
Honourable Harriet Pitt 1837-1841
Honourable Caroline Cocks (later Lady Caroline Somers-Cocks) 1837-1849
Honourable Margaret Dillon 1837-1838
Miss Sarah Cavendish 1837-1842
Miss Matilda Paget 1837-1855
Miss Amelia Matilda Murray 1837-1853
Miss Harriet Lister 1837-1844
Miss Mary Spring Rice (later Honourable Mary Spring Rice) 1837-1841
Miss Henrietta Julia Anson 1838-1841
Honourable Frances Catherine Devereux 1841-1847
Miss Eleanor Stanley 1841-1862
Honourable Georgiana Liddell 1841-1845
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Thank you Ann,
Any way of finding out if any of them disgraced themselves by eloping or such?
No name you see,and as I cant find mr Perkins /Watkins in 1851 where they may possibly be together it is a needle in the old proverbial.
I really need Alfred or Elizas birth cert I know,but under what name and where?
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I just hate all the bumph. May I summarize?
(not your bumph, Viv; the C&Ped extraneous noise from Ancestry)
1861
Name: Alfred Perkins
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Pauper
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Name: Eliza Perkins
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Pauper
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Civil parish: Devizes St James
Town: Devizes
County/Island: Wiltshire
1871
John Watkins 52 /1819 - shoemaker, born Devizes
Ann Watkins 45 /1826 - new wife, born Gloucestershire
Alfred Watkins 18 /1853 - born Devizes
Eliza Watkins 14 /1857
Civil parish: St Martin
Town: Hereford
County/Island: Herefordshire
Q: Was John Watkins's first wife a lady-in-waiting to Queen Victoria?
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Thanks Potty and Dea.
I had them on my list of very possibles,and you have both now helped to confirm that I need to send for the Alfred one at least.
Just that with 2 possible surnames I dont want to have to run up a huge bill for my friend,although she has said to do whatever I feel, its still her money.
Its good to get others views on it.
Thank you.
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A 'clue' from IGI - Alfred's mum was Caroline
OOOhh er !! but that makes his father George, not John??
ALFRED CHARLES PERKINS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christening: 05 SEP 1852 Bromham, Wiltshire, England
Parents:
Father: GEORGE PERKINS Family
Mother: CAROLINE
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality
Dea x
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I've been dredging through censuses.
1841 in Bromham:
Sarah Perkins 50
George Perkins 20 >>> Shoe Maker
Phebe Perkins 21
Caroline Perkins 20
Edwin Perkins 15
Laura Perkins 10
1851 in Bromham:
George Perkins 33
Caroline Perkins 30
George Perkins 4
Charles Perkins 2
Edwin Perkins 1 Mo
Henry White 15
If they're the people, there seems to be no truth to the tale. ;)
Don't see 'em in 1861, though, so there could be *some* truth to the tale, i.e. the name change. And we all know how common that was ...
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