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my uncle richard rawcliffe died 1984 in liverpool I never knew him I was an orphan but anyway Isent for death cert and found out his informant on the cert sign herself maudy mary rawcliffe I have search high and low for her she is his daugther he was born 1922 wesham mother maiden name isles I have his marriage cert because he was in the merchant navy he didnot marry until 1964 please can anyone out there find the birth of maudy mary rawcliffe barbara dawson

There are no births for a child matching the info you have given.

I found a 1964 marriage with spouse's surname Lovett, (is that the correct one?) but there are no births with those two surnames. It may be that the wife had been married before...............do you have the marriage certificate?

seeing as he has already passed i will post his marriage.

Name: Richard Rawcliffe
Spouse Surname: Lovett
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1964
Registration district: Crosby
Registration county (inferred): Merseyside
Volume Number: 10c
Page Number: 204
spouse Sarah A Lovett

No luck so far, but this looks likely to be his wife's death:

Name: Sarah Ann Rawcliffe
Birth Date: 28 Feb 1925
Death Registration Month/Year: Jan 1998
Age at death (estimated): 72
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Register number: F22D
District and Subdistrict: 0251F
Entry number: 80

Possibly it would contain a clue too?

Name: Richard Rawcliffe
Spouse : Sarah A Lovett
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1964
Registration district: Crosby
Registration county (inferred): Merseyside
Volume Number: 10c
Page Number: 204


There's no birth to match that name and age, so I wonder whether Ms Lovett had been previously married and that was her first married surname?

No birth to match Rawcliffe-Lovett -- but if Sarah had been married before, Lovett would not show as mother's surname.


Hmm. There is only one "Maudy M" birth in the 1916-2005 index, in 1963 in Manchester. But neither surname matches. (And there's no marriage to match those surnames ... in fact, the mother's surname doesn't really exist ...)

- edit - I checked the image for that birth. I'm sure it's MANDY M, rather than Maudy M, and it was a reregistration done in 1970, and the mother's surname has been mistranscribed ... so that one's out of the running.

Theres no Rawcliffe/Lovett births listed ,maybe she was adopted

Have you considered looking for an obituary? You have his exact date and place of death. The local library would have newspapers on microfilm and could help you look for an obituary that would give more details about family.

Ditto for Sarah Ann Rawcliffe, if she turned out to be the right person.

I also wonder -- are you sure it's MAUDY MARY?

MANDY MARY would be statistically a lot more likely. There are dozens of births with those two names.

If the Sarah who died in 1998 was his wife, she would have been nearly 40 when they married.

I wonder whether the daughter might have been from a previous relationship of Richard's, and her birth not registered as Rawcliffe? Or a child of Sarah's before her marriage to Richard, who was then reared by Sarah and Richard ...

Birth of Sarah A Lovett, West Derby, Jun Qtr 1923, but doesn't accord with the death info. Mandy is a better bet for the 1960s, but no sign of a Mandy or Amanda birth that fits.

If it were me, I would get the above Marriage Certificate, it will at least tell you his father, and whether she was a widow (or a divorcee?).

Does the death cert give an address? You could look at Electoral Rolls.

Margaret

Editing out info about possible marriage/birth of a Mandy (P) Rawcliffe, which is a bit personal really. If Barbara returns to her thread (I have PMed her) it can be sent privately.

Madmeg - I'm figuring Barbara knows his parents, and is likely the child of his sister Sarah. But the marriage cert still seems to be important, as we've said, to know whether wife Sarah had been married before. Barbara has it, actually, she says in the OP, so she can tell us Sarah's status.

*All* info is needed!


Barbara - got your PMs -- tell us especially about Richard's wife -- age, marital status, anything else.

ms lovett is named as a spinster on the marriage certifcate and her father is called daniel lovett who was deces at the time of marriage she is age 40 and he is aged 41 barbara

on the death certifcate richard wife is not even mention only this maudy mary so my be they had spilt up I wonder how she got to be called Rawcliffe barbara

So it looks very likely that Sarah Lovett is the Sarah Rawcliffe who died in 1998. I would get that certificate.

English death certificates don't actually name family members -- they just give the name of the person who registered the death. That might have been something that the daughter did if the mother was grieving or occupied with arrangements? I think it was quite common for adult children to be the informants of death.

What about the name of the informant? Are you quite sure it's Maudy and not Mandy? That really would be unusual. (If it's typewritten - I don't know how this works - it could still be a mistranscription of Mandy. You should see all the Moncks, a family name of mine, who are transcribed all over as Mouck.)

Looks likely that the birth of Sarah A Lovett, June 1923 is the right one, despite the birth date not agreeing with the death record. The birth records mmn as Lunt.

Here is the marriage of Daniel Lovett and Annie Lunt:

Marriages Sep 1904 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blower Marion W. Derby 8b 731
Lovett Daniel W. Derby 8b 731
Lunt Annie W. Derby 8b 731
McKimmie John W. Derby 8b 731

Worth getting Sarah A's death cert too I think.

So still to find the mysterious Maudy/Mandy Mary.

Margaret

And Barbara, to add to Janey's comment, my Wilkes Herbert who is recorded as Herberns, and his wife's family who is Cokeham, Coukham, Coockham, Cokham, Cocker and Duckham. Not to mention Frank Roome who was really Frank Dallows.

I digress.

I would be tempted to try electoral rolls next to find Maudy/Mandy Mary at the address she gave on her dad's death. It might mean a trip to Liverpool, and I don't know where you are, or maybe the local council would look it up for you.

Margaret

Perhaps you could try giving the Liverpool Echo a call. They're in Old Hall Street and, since you have the exact details, some kind soul in their Archives Department might be willing to take a quick look for an obituary. Otherwise, there are microfilmed copies of the paper in the Central Library, in William Brown Street. The Records Office is on the 4th floor of the library.

Ithink I will send for sarah ann rawcliffe [lovett ] death certifcate and hop e the mess is sorted out youve all given me some great ideas so here goes am I aloud to give out peoples addresses richard rawcliffe my uncle 1922 was found dead on arrival at walton hospital I did get in touch with them but they had no information regarding him and where he might even be buried . barbara I

Did anyone notice that there are 2 marriages for a Sarah A Lovett in crosby 1 in 1964, one in 1965, hows that for coincedence.

The other people who have Richard in their tree, are you in touch with them ?

Well spotted sheila only the 1965 lovett married a ronald clayton but it just goes to show I hadnt spotted it before thanks for that barbara

If that is the right Sarah A Lovett in 1923, she had siblings:

Births Dec 1913
Lovett Margaret Lunt W.derby 8b 496

Births Mar 1917
Lovett William Lunt W. Derby 8b 421

Births Dec 1918
Lovett Maria Lunt W.Derby 8b 372

Births Jun 1920
Lovett Rosa Lunt W. Derby 8b 551

Births Jun 1923
Lovett Sarah A Lunt W.Derby 8b 466


A GR member probably has Rosa in her tree. (People don't always get birth dates correct in their trees, and there was a Rosa Lovett born 1919 in Hereford, so it could be the other one.) A living family member might well have information about Sarah's family.

There are also two GR members who have a Sarah Lovett born 1925 in unknown place. (You have her born 1922, which I assume was your guess to match Richard's birthdate.) There were three Sarah Lovetts born in 1923, but none in 1925. Since that is the birthdate on the death certificate for Sarah Rawcliffe, it's worth checking to see whether the person in those trees is the same Sarah, I'd think.

A GR member has a Margaret Lovett born 1914 in Liverpool; another has William Lovett born 191t. Again, these could be the same Lovetts.

I assume you are in contact with the two other people who have Richard Rawcliffe born 1922 Wesham in their trees.


I continue to recommend looking for a published obituary for both Richard and Sarah.