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yes im trying to find a marriage certificate for John Gracie and Margaret but with no luck yet , will keep trying thx

Hi Kev,

So we're hoping that Margaret Gracie was born a Russell or Hamill.

Was there a family story passing this info down the line??

This is about Charles father;

"His father, Arthur, had been a seaman but retired from the seafaring life shortly after his marriage in 1825. He and his wife moved to Newry and bought a brewery which provided the family with a modest income. The couple had a large family, five children from Mrs. Russell’s first marriage to John Hamill, a Belfast merchant, and six Russell children. The family adhered closely to the Irish Catholic faith, which is evident from the fact that three of Charles’ sisters became nuns and his brother Matthew went on to join the Jesuit priesthood. Matthew was also a renowned poet. "


I know one sister was Katherine............ just need to trace the other daughters now and see if there were any Margarets born to Arthur Russell or John Hamill.


Dee x

also looking for margaret russell birth cert born london 1878

1901 England Census
about Margaret Russell
Name: Margaret Russell
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Ludy Ellen <<<<<<<<< LADY ELLEN
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England

1881 England Census
about Charles Russell
Name: Charles Russell
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 86 Harley St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Barrister At Law Practising Q. C. M. P.

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Cavendish Square
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Russell 47
Ellen Russell 40
Arthur Russell 19
May Russell 7
Bertrand Russell 4
Lilian Russell 3
(Margaret Russell 1 )
Maria Mulholland 69
Clara Mulholland 27
Marianne Nugent 27
Mary Curley 19
Anne Fryer 47
Charles Gass 34
Frederick Wyatt 16
Elizabeth Curley 25
Emily Heath 24
Louisa Portlock 21
Mary Rockwell 22

Is this her?

1871 England Census
Name: Frances Gracey
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Cleator
Ecclesiastical parish: Cleator Moor
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Whitehaven
Sub-registration district: Egremont
ED, institution, or vessel: 2m
Household schedule number: 443
Household Members:
Name Age
James Curry 26
Mary Ann Curry 25
Sarah Curry 5
James Curry 3
John Curry 9 months
William McMechan 23
James McMechan 16
James Sloan 22
Frances Gracey 15

Dee --------

This is about Charles father;

"His father, Arthur, had been a seaman but retired from the seafaring life shortly after his marriage in 1825. He and his wife moved to Newry and bought a brewery which provided the family with a modest income. The couple had a large family, five children from Mrs. Russell’s first marriage to John Hamill, a Belfast merchant, and six Russell children. The family adhered closely to the Irish Catholic faith, which is evident from the fact that three of Charles’ sisters became nuns and his brother Matthew went on to join the Jesuit priesthood. Matthew was also a renowned poet. "

I know one sister was Katherine............ just need to trace the other daughters now and see if there were any Margarets born to Arthur Russell or John Hamill. -------------------

Did Kevin send this to you via pm? Otherwise where has it come from? Is this supposed to be Charles Russell? Who is Arthur? How do you know one of the sisters is Katherine? Who is Katherine?


Kevin, where on earth did you get the idea that the Russells of Killowen were your Russells - family legend? The Margaret, daughter of the Earl of Killowen was born in 1880 and doesn't fit with your Fanny Gracie.

You say - John Gracie was a pavior and i think he was born in whitehaven , he had a daughter frances(fanny) Gracie who married 5/1/1879 at age 22, born 1857 also lived at 22 tangier street whitehaven , i dont know when john gracie was born


Kevin - I find it very doubtful that an Irish road paver would marry an Earl's daughter, but stranger things have happened. As the eldest daughter is born in Co Down I should think they married in Ireland. Is this where you're getting your jumbled info from?
1871 England Census
Name: John Gracie
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: CO Down, Ireland
Civil parish: St Bees
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Whitehaven
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Address: Birley Court

Occupation: Labourer

Registration district: Whitehaven
Sub-registration district: Whitehaven
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
John Gracie 45
Margaret Gracie 34
Ann Gracie 15 - born Co Down, Ireland
Robert Gracie 5
Jane Gracie 4
Patrick Casely 22 - boarder
Catherine Spence 23 - next household
James Spence 2 - next household
Elizabeth Spence 8 months - next household

Marriages Mar 1879
COWELL Elizabeth Whitehaven 10b 665
>>>>>>GRACIE Frances Whitehaven 10b 665
GRAY Daniel Whitehaven 10b 665
>>>>>>Roe Tom Whitehaven 10b 665

1901 England Census
Name: Frances Roe
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Tom
Gender: Female
Where born: Down, Ireland [Co Down on image]
Civil parish: Workington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
Town: Workington
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street Address: 27 Bolton St

Occupation:

Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Workington
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 268
Household Members:
Name Age
Tom Roe 45 - Railway Goods Porter; born Whitehaven
Frances Roe 43
Jane Roe 21
Thomas Roe 16
Maggie Roe 14
John Roe 11
James Roe 8
Mary Roe 6
Bertha L Roe 3

Eldest 3 children born Whitehaven, younger children born Workington



1891 England Census
Name: Francis Roe
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Tom
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Workington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street Address: Wesley St

Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Workington
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Tom Roe 39 - Railway Porter
Francis Roe 34
Jane Roe 11
Eva Roe 8
Thomas Roe 6
Maggie Roe 4
John Roe 1

1881 England Census
Name: Fanny Rae [Roe on image]
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Tom
Gender: Female
Where born: Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Civil parish: Preston Quarter
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street Address: 3 Harbour View
Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Whitehaven
Sub-registration district: St Bees
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Tom Rae 26 - Railway Guard
Fanny Rae 24
Jane Rae 2
Peter Beveridge 25 - boarder
Robert Cowan 38 - boarder

Ozibird


The info about Charles Russells farther Arthur is from the net, I think Kev is trying to establish that Frances (Fanny) Gracie's mother Margaret is a Russell or Hamill.

There is no possible way that Margaret Russell born to Charles and Ellen Russell is Frances Gracie's mother therefore I have gone back a generation to see if there is a link there to the Gracie's.

I'm still waiting to her from Kev were the idea of the Russell family being linked to the Gracie family come into play.


Dee

i know that 22 tangier street whitehaven is a pub , the russell family where well into there pubs and brewery ,it has been said that the russell family would visit witehaven , i have the marrage cert of john gracie's daughter and she was living in that put (22 tangier street whitehaven) at the time of marrage i think aged 22. Its hard to imagine but my grandmother may bantock wich is mary roe's daughter has always said we are linked to the russell family ? hard to imagine i know :)
1871 England Census
Name: John Gracie
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: CO Down, Ireland
Civil parish: St Bees
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Whitehaven
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Address: Birley Court

Occupation: Labourer

Registration district: Whitehaven
Sub-registration district: Whitehaven
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
**John Gracie 45**
**Margaret Gracie 34**
Ann Gracie 15 - born Co Down, Ireland
Robert Gracie 5
Jane Gracie 4
Patrick Casely 22 - boarder
Catherine Spence 23 - next household
James Spence 2 - next household
Elizabeth Spence 8 months - next household

Hi Kev,

If this is little Robert Gracie's birth reg it should confirm his mothers maiden name;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1865
----------------
GRACEY Robert Whitehaven 10b 543

that birth sert is gracey not gracie , maybe wrong??

Hi Kev,

Often names were spelt incorrect, although I can't say for definate that the birth reg will state the parents John and Margaret I would take a gamble seeing that the year is about right and the district is right.

If you look at the birth reg below you will see another version of the name Gracie for Jane;


Births Mar 1867
-----------------------
Gracay Jane Whitehaven 10b 529




Dee x

?????????

Births Dec 1868
GRACIE Robert Whitehaven 10b 579

Hi Ozibird,


Looks like that Robert Gracie died;


Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1869
-------------------------------------------
Gracie Robert 0 Whitehaven 10b 412

Charles Russell's fourth daughter, Lilian, lived in Henley. Our parish records include a handwritten note from her to the parish priest dated 1921, requesting that mass be said for the anniversary of her mother's (Lady Ellen) death. That death had been recorded in the priest's notice book in 1918 and mass was said for her in the intervening years and for some years subsequently.
One of their sons, I think Peter (still checking this), is still remembered by some parishioners. He was very active in the parish and was a regular reader at mass.
Hope this fills in a bit of background for someone's research, though the thread seems to have moved away from the original family question. ;-)