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Hi Janey

Ah, it was you who sorted Dallorzo/Roome, I did not realise that (to anyone else reading this, it isn't relevant to Wilkes Herbert).

Yes, I have a James Weaver (White, White Weaver) who changed his name cos he supposedly deserted from the army and then wanted to re-join. We tend to think everyone conformed to normality - but they didn't. Which is why I welcomed your "wild theory" approach - though as you say, unlikely in this case. I might come back to you for James White Weaver another day, you seem to have a bent for finding the obscure.

I have already reported the errors to Ancestry (amongst many others in the past - like the 2-year old child who was a bar attendant in Wakefield) - and don't get me onto the 1911 census!

Folks, just noticed I referred to William Mosely, it should be Thomas Mosley. William is William Turner - I am not helping myself.

If we have hit a brick wall on Wilkes Herbert, so be it. Pity as he is a ggg grandfather, not just a sibling.

Any more bright or seemingly daft ideas from anyone?

Best wishes

Margaret

Hi Selina

It is definitely Hudson (surname) and just an initial, which looks like J.

Margaret

I don't actually pay much attention to who posts what.

So I had forgotten my singular success with Joseph Dallorzo/Roome / that it had anything to do with you.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1154491

It's a wonderful wander among the twists and turns of censuses and how to find people doing their best to hide (with Ancestry aiding and abetting them).

Speaking of Ancestry, you have reproduced census records here with errors on them - it would be wise to make corrections at Ancestry. Anyone else looking for the person will then be able to find them, and also find you. I have met two significant distant cousins that way, when they contacted me as a result of one minor and one major correction I made there.

People changed surnames to hide from the army (my grx2 grandfather), creditors (his sister's husband) ... or to revert to what may have been their real surname after having a stepfather or such ... it's always wise to investigate. In this case, there isn't a lot of similarity between the two men, so I wouldn't adopt that as the best hypothesis, fond though I am of wild theories.

Who is the other witness to the marriage?

I thought about Janey's suggestion that Wilkes Herbert might be William Turner. It might seem to have been a strange suggestion, but I have had family members who got fed up of people getting their names wrong, so changed them. And I have Joseph Dalorzo who became Joseph Roome.

I can find an IGI entry for William Turner, bap 27 April 1923 in Kings Langley, Hertforshire, parents Joseph and Sarah, siblings Elizabeth, John, Thomas and Sarah Ann. I cannot find any of the family in 1841. There are several possible marriages of William Turner in Hertfordshire.

Don't think this leads me to Wilkes Herbert though.

Margaret

It seems I had the wrong perception as to how much information people would want to have "up front" in order to find Wilkes Herbert. I have tried to reply as quickly as possible to requests for further information that I already have, and apologise if people have spent unnecessary time looking.

I have even more on the Coukhams if that is needed (including the fact that Sarah Ann Herbert is living with them in 1851):

Name: Sarah Ann Herkest
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Sheffield

Civil parish: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: Sheffield Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 61
Household Members: Name Age
William Coukhom 67
Martha Coukhom 61
Thos Moseley 36
Elizabeth Moseley 27
Emile Moseley 6
Sarah Ann Herkest 3

My assumption is that Elizabeth Moseley is the daughter of William Coukham (Couckom), sister of Sarah (Herbert). It does not help that the census says she is the Coukham's grand-daughter (which she may well be).

In 1841 William Mosley is also with the Coukhams, but with a wife Sarah:

1841 England Census
about Wm Cockham
Name: Wm Cockham
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1785
Gender: Male
Where born: Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Sheffield
Hundred: Strafforth and Tickhill (South Division)
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: Sheffield Park
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Cockham 56
Martha Cockham 50
James Cockham 23
Thomas Cockham 16
Samuel Cockham 11
Thos Mosley 26
Sarah Mosley 26
Sarah Ann Mosley 1

My first thought was that Sarah Mosley was the daughter of the Coukhams. However there is a possible death for her in Mar 1846 (Moseley), whereas Sarah would seem to turn up with William Turner in 1851. And death of Sarah Ann Mosley Sep 1844.

Many thanks

Margaret

well what a carry on!!!! I only mentioned Joe Cocker for a bit of light entertainment and certainly never meant it to cause a problem - lighten up is the word here

as far as I am aware, Janey is without doubt the best researcher on these boards - she finds stuff no one else can and she seems to have done stirling work on this thread as she has done on others

one certainly does not expect to find unpleasantness on the research boards - that is usually reserved for Chat

You're on your own, Margaret.

My comment clearly meant -- if none of us can find Wilkes Herbert **** despite the very considerable time and effort that I, for one, have devoted to the job **** then maybe Joe Cocker can. What you would call a joke. If I need a lecture, I'll ask for one.

"I thank you for your contributions thus far, but actually you have not found me anything that I did not already have."

How nice of you to tell us once we spent time "finding it".

Btw --

"Selina/Janey, the marriage is Cocker, Couker on the cert, I did say that."

-- I let it go at the time, but: NO, you did not say that. Not until the two of us had wracked our brains and wrung it out of FreeBMD and asked you. (That's what I was doing, among other searches, while Selena was posting and you were answering her question, back on page 1.)

I'm actually very excellent at reading squiggles, and particularly at deciphering antique handwriting. Oh well, eh?

Janey

I have the marriage cert of Wilkes Herbert and Sarah Cocker (Couker). I would need your personal email address to send it for your scrutiny, I think, unless there is some other way. But the father's name is really just a squiggle. But some people are good at reading squiggles, so do let me know if you are prepared to have a look.

Best wishes

Margaret

Margaret lighten up. Janey was tongue in cheek about Joe Cocker knowing where Wilkes was.
She wasnt to know you would get upset by her remark

I'm not averse to a bit of chit-chat. I do remember Koo Stark. I am old enough to remember Donovan too, have actually met him, and a lot of other old stars, but I can't see why you think it necessary to make remarks about Joe Cocker not knowing who Wilkes Herbert is.

I am trying to research my family tree.

I thank you for your contributions thus far, but actually you have not found me anything that I did not already have.

Maybe relatives of Joe Cocker will get a different reception.

Margaret

Well, it's probably unlikely that Wilkes died, at least before 1861. Sarah and William would have married. -- Unless William Turner was himself married, of course.

just watch it Janey - OK!!!!!!!!!!

Well, William Turner's still extant in 1891 and 1901.

1901

Name: William Turner
Age: 79
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relation: Head
Where born: Kings Langley, Hertfordshire, England
Occupation: Pensioner Shrewsbury Hospital
Condition as to marriage: Widower
Civil parish: Sheffield

In 1891 he is head, widower, general labourer.

Sorry Janey, 1847 is fine. Didn't think it would affect anything.

Selina/Janey, the marriage is Cocker, Couker on the cert, I did say that.

I did mention William Turner.

Janey, he is still in Sheffield in 1881 and 1891, a widower, no family with him. Not a clue where William and Sarah are in 1871.

Still no death of Wilkes Herbert.

Love to all

Margaret

Well I have two friends who used to share a London rooftop with Donovan!

And my old No.1 used to live in Texas with Ginny ... who was once married to Jay ... who was a bit of a lad and previously had liaisons with Jerry Hall and ... what the heck was her name, silly name ... Koo Stark.

So you see where this is going ... six degrees of separation from Mick and Andy!

Maybe Joe Cocker knows what became of Wilkes. I don't!

dob 1826 in 1841 means only that he was aged 15 to 19. He could have been almost 20.

Do you suppose there's any chance that he actually *is* William Turner, born c1823? Having changed his name for some reason, and taken a more obscure job? But if so, why keep the child's surname the same ...

useless bit of info!!

Joe Cocker is from Sheffield - have a friend who used to date him

Looking ... not finding.

Do you know what became of the Turners after 1861?

For looking for people in census, birth details are crucial.

In 1861:

Name: Sarah A Herbert
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Sarah
Where born: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Name: Sarah Turner
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Where born: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Name: William Turner
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah
Where born: Langley, Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: Sheffield