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There's possible confirmation of that marriage.

Search in the IGI for birth, parents William Herbert and Martha, Shropshire, 1790-1830, say.

Only the one. (And none in Yorkshire; I checked.)

JOHN HERBERT
Christening: 23 FEB 1799 Edgton, Shropshire, England
Father: WILLIAM HERBERT
Mother: MARTHA
Batch No.: P017411

So the submitted marriage record seems reasonably credible -- that baptism record is an extracted parish record, for the same place, 2 years after the marriage.

And if that John's middle name were William, after his father, he would be JW Herbert.

Oh it is a submitted record, which I tend to ignore. Is there some way of contacting the submitter? Never done that before cos never been so desperate!

Margaret

No, he was not at Pond Street in 1841. Looks like Rough Bank.

Straws need clutching. So where did you find the marriage of William Herbert and Martha Wilkes? IGI? Off to look, but thought I already had. Perhaps the wrong time span.

Margaret

Margaret.
At the beginning of this quest to find Wilks you said you found Wilkes Herben 1821 Yorkshire and dismissed him because your Wilks is on the 1841 census as not of the County.

Now we know how unreliable census info can be.Is it possible the enumerator made a mistake and Wilks was born in Yorkshire?
The marriage cert you sent me for Wilks. The father could be JW Herbert.
Was Wilks living at Pond Lane in 1841?

Just a thought CLUTCHING AT STRAWS

William Herbert married 15th aug 1797 Edgton Shropshire .spouse Martha Wilkes

Thanks for finding this Janey, but as you say, 1814, crap. Probably won't help for Wilkes Herbert, but I do have lots of other cutlers in Sheffield, so will try it for them.

Margaret

Hey -

http://www.cutlers-hallamshire.org.uk/html/heritage/collections/

The survival of the Company’s archives from 1624 is remarkable, which contain biographical details of more than 30,000 apprentices and freemen to 1814, as well as its accounts, minutes of meetings and administration of its assets and charities.


oh, crap. 1814.

If there's any chance he had rellies in the trade?

http://freespace.virgin.net/a.data/The%20History%20of%20Cutlery.htm

?

Another reason for the success of Sheffield's cutlery industry must be due to the system of organisation. Under George Talbot, Lord of the Manor of Sheffield, the cutlers operated under a system of guilds, with the Lord of the Manor at the head. Unfortunately, when George Talbot's successor died in 1617, the guild system fell down, as there was nobody to take over in the position of authority. The Sheffield cutlers were so concerned by the disorganisation, that 4 years later, they presented a bill to Parliament to form a new controlling body. This Act of Parliament formed the Company of Cutlers of Hallamshire (which covers the whole Sheffield area) which was establised in 1624, and under this new authority, the cutlery industry flourished. The company is still around today, and although it lost it's authority in the early 19th Century, it still has some important functions, and is relevant today in Sheffield.


This seems to be it now:

http://www.cutlers-hallamshire.org.uk/

Was that what you were looking at?

Nothing from the Society of Cutlers. All I could find was references to Masons (i.e. Freemasons), no ordinary plebs like mine.

Margaret

Think I should rename the thread Clutching at Straws.

You're probably right. I've not needed to research much in the US, so am not familiar with their tactics.

Just discovered there is a Society of Cutlers in Sheffield, maybe they have a record of a lowly Wilkes Herbert. Not looked for them yet (heard of them less than 1 minute ago), but as he was an apprentice he might be listed somewhere. Off to look.

Graveyard next.

Margaret

I think these sites throw up anything that might make you think there's a match, so you can then be got to follow the links to "find Wilkes Herbert in property records! do credit search for Wilkes Herbert!" etc etc -- all of which, of course, cost money. ;)

The online directories for the UK, Canada, Australia don't do that, but all of them in the US do, I've found.

Of course, there could just have been a mistake made by the phone company when it published the info. ;)

Hi Janey

I can now only find one also. Didn't notice that the family members have the surname Wilks. Wondered if the Americans switched the names, but tried a person I know in the USA and he was listed as expected. Like you say, a mirage.

Margaret

? I get one:

http://www.whitepages.com

I ask for first name Wilkes, last name Herbert, and there it is, in Florida.

Oh, except that underneath, it lists two people with the surname Wilks, one of whom has given name Herbert.

Odd just the one, because a search for given name Herbert, last name Wilkes turns up several more.

I don't know what your results are, but if that's one of them, I think it's a mirage.

There are 2 Wilkes Herberts coming up on White Pages (America). Anybody any idea how I access them?

Margaret

Selina, no worries. I said 1848 cos that is what all the census records on Ancestry show her as. Difficult to know how precise to be.

Good new is today I have made contact with another Coukham so another possible source of information.

I think we have exhausted Wilkes Herbert now, and he has exhausted the rest of us! Cemeteries here I come.

Thanks to all.

Margaret

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had Sarah's birth certificate. I thought this because you said b1848 and the registration was 1847.

Off to bed. Now 2.20 a.m. UK time.

Regards

Margaret

Hi Janey

The Wilkes (with an "e") is the spelling on the marriage cert of Sarah Ann Herbert to William Couckham, and he also is Wilkes (Herberts) on the 1841 census. Yes a cutler was indeed someone who made cutlery - Sheffield being renowned for making stainless steel cutlery in the 1800s. Various occupations arise such as Table blade forger, Knife forger, blade forger, women seem to have been spoon forgers (?), don't know who did the forks, probably 5-year olds! On marriage of Sarah Ann Herbert, her father Wilkes is a Pen Blade forger, which apparently means he made those combination sets that include hooks to get stones out of horses hooves. I can't be certain on that, just what I have read.

Almost everyone in Sheffield in the mid-late 1800s was employed in the steel industry, with cutlery being the major area. Unless they were Ag Labs, which plenty were. No upmarket employment for our lot then!

Well, Janey, we are running out of ideas. Best I can do now is try to trace current family and see if they can shed any light, but 1860 is a long time ago, so unlikely.

Thanks for trying.

I'll find the bugger somehow - and let you all know when I do.

Love

Magaret

Aha, another tidbit -- cutler (somebody who makes cutlery? I dunno!)

I'd tried for WH in1881 using blade and forger (which looked rather odd when I typed it ... forger, not a wise thing to confess to the census) to no avail.

So I just tried searching for Herbert, occupation cut* ... also to no avail. It did find me a butcher, though!

Not likely he was still around in 1881 I guess, but always worth trying what tools there are at hand.

WILKS is the spelling on his marriage as well, so I'd take that as how he spelled it, with someone else responsible for the WILKES in 1841. Or it was just random, depending on who was literate in the vicinity and what they decided on.

Just so you know, I spent some time searching in 1851, in particular for daughter Sarah by the birth details from 1861, with mother Sarah and father Wil* (to cover both options). The more details that can be included the better, and doing that w/o a surname, surnames being so oft mistranscribed, can work wonders.

If she'd been with them, that might have found her, even as whatever she was mistranscribed as! But ... if I'd known she wasn't with them ...

So what we don't know is whether Sarah Sr was with Wilks, William or no one in 1851. Or hey, someone else! And that is actually a total possibility, and something you might just plain never know.

Hi Selina

I assume you mean Sarah Ann Herbert - I already have it, that is what led me to Wilkes Herbert being her father, and Sarah Cokeham mother. Otherwise I would never had heard of Wilkes Herbert. Incidentally, it is Wilks with no "e" on her birth cert. He is a Cutter (or Cutler - common job in Sheffield), the child was born at 20 New Street, Sheffield, mother's address. Born 8 May 1847, reported by Sarah Herbert, mother, 25 May 1847, Sheffield Park District. In case anyone looks this up, there is a Sheffield Park somewhere down South. This is Sheffield, Park, Yorkshire.

I am now going to try burials for Wilkes Herbert. Not looked for any in Sheffield before, not sure when the Municipal Cemetery opened, perhaps earlier than some more rural ones, and not sure how responsive the City Council is.

Love to all

Margaret

No bright ideas, only can suggest you get Wilkes daughter's birth certificate to see if it throws anything up, maybe a different first name or middle name for Wilkes.