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Marriage cert of William Turner and Sarah Cokhom arrived, 17/5/1853. William 30, bachelor, engine driver, father Joseph, baker. This could tie in with his brother Thomas being a baker/confectioner in Sheffield, though he appears to be born 5 years before the supposed christened in Kings Langley. Sarah Cokhom is 33, a widow, but no previous name given, father William, labourer.

I've found Thomas and wife Mary in 1851, 61, 71 and 81, William and Sarah in 1861, 71 and 81, and William after Sarah dies. Still no sign of either of them in 1851, nor of the Turners in 1841.

Just telling you this for interest, don't think much more can be found.

Margaret

How odd. Well, it can't be ignored can it?

I've looked again for them in 1851, no sign. Also the other pair on the marriage page - Esther Armitage and William Hird in 1861, just to confirm they married each other, but no sign of them either.

Rotherham is the nearest town to Sheffield. But why marry in her maiden name? Perhaps the vicar/registrar got it wrong.

Think I'll have to get the certificate.

Margaret

Do you suppose?


Marriages Jun 1853
Armitage Esther Rotherham 9c 493
? Cokham Sarah Rotherham 9c 493
Hird William Rotherham 9c 493
? Turner William Rotherham 9c 493


This looks like our William Turner:

WILLIAM TURNER
Christening: 27 APR 1823 Kings Langley, Hertford, England
Father: JOSEPH TURNER
Mother: SARAH
Batch No.: CC048131


Turner, British Isles
Father: Joseph , Mother: Sarah
Batch Number: C048131

1. ELIZABETH TURNER
Gender: Female Christening: 20 FEB 1831 Kings Langley, Hertford, England
2. SARAH ANN TURNER
Gender: Female Christening: 06 AUG 1820 Kings Langley, Hertford, England
3. WILLIAM TURNER
Gender: Male Christening: 27 APR 1823 Kings Langley, Hertford, England
4. JOHN TURNER
Gender: Male Christening: 20 FEB 1831 Kings Langley, Hertford, England
5. THOMAS TURNER
Gender: Male Christening: 14 AUG 1825 Kings Langley, Hertford, England

-- for looking for him in previous years ...


Just for info, I would bet this is brother Thomas in 1851:

Name: Thomas Turner
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary (age 36)
> Where born: Abols Langley, Hertfordshire, England
> Civil parish: Sheffield

Great to see you have your confirmation at last. Pity no sign of Wilks death ref.

I often wonder about missing people. Even today some just disappear. I wonder if Wilks died somewhere suddenly and noboby knew who he was so his death isnt registered under his own name.

I wonder if there was a John Doe /Jane Doe death index for unknown dead.
Buried in " Potters field"

AGreed. This Ellen Herbert is Eleanor in 1841, and Ellen in 1851. I have come across this before, also as Nellie!

Margaret

Just one thing to add.

Ellen and Eleanor were virtually completely interchangeable and there are loads of people who appear under both in various records throughout their lives. So there is no negative conclusion to be drawn from the varying name.

Ellen Herbert birth 1838, parents John and Ellen (he a bricklayer); born Yard, Pond Street, Sheffield. Parents of Wilks Herben ch 13 Sep 1821, Cawood, Yorkshire, John and Ellen (or was it Eleanor?). Marriage of Wilks Herbert, Pond Lane, father John, bricklayer. John and Ellen living Pond Street in 1851, daughter Ellen with them, he a bricklayer. Marriage of Wilkes Herbert to Sarah Coukham 26 Sept 1842. Father of Wilkes, John, Bricklayer. No sign of either in 1851. Daughter Sarah Ann Herbert b May 1847.

Is that enough? I think so.

Still no proof of William Turner, and no sighting of Wilk(e)s and Sarah in 1851 or a death for Wilks.

Best wishes

Margaret

So just to tie it up and make sure we outsiders have it right, because I'd forgotten this was what we were actually looking for on the birth cert, I see now:


Wilkes Herbert was married from Pond Street.

Ellen Herbert was born at Pond Street.

QED Wilkes Herbert was the brother of Ellen Herbert.


I've got it right??

Cert arrived, all confirmed, address Yard in Pond Street.

Margaret

Thanks Janey, anything is worth a look. David Herbert's post is 2005 and he seems to have bitten the dust after only a handful of postings.

Never mind, I am pretty sure the stuff you found is as sound as can be.

Cert of Ellen Herbert not yet arrived, but don't think it will tell us anything new, just confirmation.

Now need a death for the fella. Made a contact at Sheffield Archives, will try him.

Thanks

Margaret

Meg - check out the info in this thread:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=356990

Herbert one-name study.

Hi Janey, I feel we have to use logic at times. I feel we have done so wisely here.

Thanks for all your help.

Margaret

Oh, me, I have no problem with those last little logical leaps!

It can't be *disproved* and there is no *other* remotely reasonable theory, or any evidence, either known or reasonably imaginable (say, Wilkes belonged to a different family that left no trace in any record and had all died by 1841 ...) that would disprove this one.

And hey, this one was mine, so what's to dislike? ;)

Seriously, it's as close as you can come to proof, in the absence of actual proof, so you go with it, girl, if you want my advice!

Hi Janey

I don't see an option for anything different. Wish there were one. The birth cert of Ellen should give mother's maiden name at least. To confirm the family.

No, we have no proof of her being the mother of Wilk(e)s Herbert. Like you say, it is a logical leap. His father has been checked by Sheffield Archives as being John (yep, they could be as wrong as me), he is a bricklayer on Wilk's marriage cert, the John we found on the census is a bricklayer.

Unless you can think of anything else to search, I have to accept what we have found - don't I? I will put a note on my tree to the effect that it isn't certain.

Best wishes

Magaret

So we're waiting for

Ellen Herbert b Q4 1838, Sheffield. £7 on its way!

? With bated breath! ... although it should just confirm the info in the IGI? so we'll still be left making that last little logical leap to that being your Wilkes in the IGI ...

There was a brewery called Pond Lane Brewery, but later listed as being on Pond Street, so I guess they are the same. Multimap seems to plonk Pond Lane at the end of Pond Street.

Margaret

I wonder if Pond Lane was the name they knew it by and it became Pond St.. Great news about the cert confirming John as father.

I contacted Sheffield Archives and sent them a copy of the certificate. They confirmed that it was a copy of the original as held by them and that in their opinion the father's name was John, which we found. They have no record of Pond Lane either.

Best wishes

Margaret

It didnt help because the marriage cert was so difficult to read and Wilks father only gave his initial which was also hard to read,. Could have been J,JW,or W.

Still it has sharpened our searching skills for the future

I suppose you look initially for things which can be confirmed by what is in front of you (i.e. not born in county), so I would probably have investigated all the Shropshire lot (eventually), before coming back to the birth in Cawood again. I must admit I would probably have assumed that Wilkes moved from wherever to Sheffield as an adult, without his family - so there's definitely a lesson for me.

Margaret