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Patricia, I think you have to work backwards from what you definitely know. You say that your gt. grandfather was Moses born 1852. If you can tell us the child of Moses from whom you descend we could trace backwards through the censuses to make sure that you have the right family.

You and I are doing quite a duet, MM. ;)

Maybe Patricia will start over now with what she *knows*, and share it with us.

Margaret & Janey, sorry to have confused you - my mistake, the 1852 Moses was not my Grandfather, I was at the time, searching for another Moses who I believed to be a child of Moses senior & Phoebe but I appear to be wrong.

The children of Moses & Phoebe were found by another researcher and on double checking I was unable to find 3 of them - Mary, Ruth or Francis.
Ann b.1853, Phoebe b1856, Robert b.1859, Mary b 1859, Fanny b.1861, Ruth b.1864 & Francis b.1867. hence my original request for help.

The children of Moses & Elizabeth nee Spiess were Casper Spiess b.1860, Charles Spiess b.1866, Johanna Spiess b.1868, Francis Pacey b.1868, Helena Pacey b.1869, & Marie Pacey b. 1874 (my Grandmother). She it was who passed on the information about my g.g.Grandparents and I found the rest of the family through 'Genes' on either the Census or bmd.

I also had an Aunt who referred to her 'Aunt Lizzie' b.1855, I have a photo of her with a great likeness to the rest of the family. I thought she may have been a first child of Moses & Elizabeth but can't find her. I wish I knew how she fitted in ?

If you can fill in any of these gaps I would be most gratefull as this will finish the Pacey tree.

Thank you, Pat

Marriages Mar 1869
PACEY Moses Westminister St.J. 1a 545
Spiers Elizabeth Westminster St J 1a 545
(presumably should be Spiess)

I'm afraid I'm still at sea, myself, but it seems we can abandon the effort wasted on unrelated Moseses.

Your grandmother is Maria Pacey 1874 (Mary in the 1881 census), daughter of the couple above.

One of Maria Pacey's children (your aunt) referred to an Aunt Lizzie in the family born 1855.

Query whether Lizzie was a sister of Maria Pacey / child of Moses Pacey.

If I have this straight ...


Births Dec 1855
Spiess Elizabeth Stepney 1c 475

The obvious possibility?

A daughter of Elizabeth Spiess before her marriage to Moses Pacey.

Spiess births start in 1851 and, in that generation, end in 1865. They would all fit quite well as children of Elizabeth born c1836 (if she was honest about her age, or she could hav been older, since she was older than Moses and might have understated) (or even of her husband if he was previously married).


Note: this looks like the Charlie in the 1881:

Births Sep 1865
SPIESS Charles Henry Strand 1b 499


I think you haven't said whether you have the Pacey+Spiess marriage certificate. Do you know whether Elizabeth was previously married (likely if the children were hers, she was), and so what her birth surname was? It would be on the marriage certificate (along with Moses's father's name), and on their children's birth certificates.

This is the family in 1881:

Moses Pacey 43, born Alton, Hants
Elizabeth Pacey 44, born Germany
Henry Spicers 21, son
Charlie Spicers 15, son
Johanna Spicers 13 , dau
Francis Pacey 13 , son
Mary Pacey 7 , dau
Mary Faulker 42 , aunt, born Germany
Children all born St. Giles.

Same family in 1871 (children have surname Pacey here):

Moses Pacey 39 , born Alton, Hants
Elizabeth Pacey 24 , born Germany (I believe her age is 34 on original)
Henry Pacey 11 , son
Charles Pacey 5 , son
Frank Pacey 3 , son
Helena Pacey 2 , dau
Henry Milder 3, boarder
Children all born St. Anne's, Middlesex

Back to 1861 and Moses is married to Phoebe with 4 children, none of which are the Henry from the 71 census who should be 1.
Can't find Elizabeth in 1861.

My, there's some garbage on family trees on Ancestry, isn't there?
One of them has Elizabeth's maiden name as Milder and her first husband was Caspar Henry Spiess/Speiss. It says he was born Switzerland and died there in 1868. It also says he married in London in 1883. (15 years after he died!)

This looks like the marriage of the daughter of Elizabeth. It gives her father's name as Caspar Henry Spiess, deceased confectioner. her address was 12 Henley Terrace. Witnesses were Caspar Henry Spiess (evidently her brother) and Mary Jane Pacey.

Name: Johanna Helena Spiess
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Spouse Name: William Christopher Keen
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1887
Parish: Christ Church
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Caspar Henry Spiess
Spouse Father Name: William Keen

Margaret, thanks for info. which is actually correct. Casper Henry Spiess senior d.1868 & Casper Henry Spiess junior b.1860, m.1883. (known as Henry on Census). I have managed to sort out the family now, all except the missing 3 children of the Moses & Phoebe marriage, Mary, Ruth & Francis. I would like to throw some light on them as to whether or not they belonged to Moses & Phoebe or were from another branch of the family.
Janey has found an Elizabeth Spiess b. 1855 from Stepney and I will get a birth cert. to verify. This would then be my Grandmother Marie Paceys 1/2 sister and the 'Aunty Lizzie' that my Aunt talked about. Regards Pat

Note that Henry is a Spiess in 1881:

Henry Spicers 21, son

(the eldest Spiess child) -- I wonder whether his birth is just recorded/transcribed as some surname we haven't figured out yet? ;)

If his age was accurate, he should be there in 1861 (but not with Moses and Phoebe, because he is Elizabeth's son), but maybe he was actually born post-census in 1861 ...


Tada. Paid attention to "Caspar Henry" in the post above!

Births Dec 1859
SPIS Caspar Henry Strand 1b 427

"I have managed to sort out the family now, all except the missing 3 children of the Moses & Phoebe marriage, Mary, Ruth & Francis. I have been given some different names by another researcher :- Ann, Phoebe, Robert, Mary, Fanny, Ruth & Francis"

Patricia, for the children who wander off, about all you can do is get birth certificates to see who their parents were. For example:

Births Sep 1867
Pacey Francis St. Giles 1b 514

He's with the family in 1871 and 1881, so no reason to think he isn't the child of Moses and Phoebe - ?

Deaths Jun 1868
Pacey Pheobe 39 St Giles 1b 323


Ahhh.

At least one died in infancy. I'd been assuming the other St Giles births were Moses and Phoebe's, when looking at FreeBMD results, and not realized this was the question ...

Births Sep 1864
PACEY Ruth St Giles 1b 484
Deaths Mar 1866
Pacey Ruth 1 St. Giles 1b 385


Other births and deaths to 1870 in St Giles:

Births Mar 1856
PACEY Phebe St Giles 1b 360

Births Mar 1859
PACEY Robert St Giles 1b 407

Births Dec 1859
PACEY Mary St Giles 1b 406

Births Mar 1861
Pacey Fanny St Giles 1b 427

Deaths Sep 1866
PACEY Ellis F M 5 St Giles 1b 356
- no birth reg (anywhere ever)

Births Sep 1867
Pacey Francis St. Giles 1b 514


So that's the whole list of them, I think.


Phoebe, Robert and Fanny are in the 1861 household. There's a marriage for Phoebe, for instance, in 1877 Westminster.

Fanny was 2 mo old in the 1861; she might have died very young and the death just not been registered.

I'm still not getting what the mystery is! Why would they be someone else's children, when they're with Moses and Phoebe in 1861?


Here we go, for Mary:

1871

Name: Mary Pacey
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Cousin
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Kingston On Thames

Aaron Pacey 41 = c1830
Ann Pacey 41
Walter W Pacey 15
Thomas Pacey 13
Mary Pacey 12
Alfred Pacey 9
Ann M Pacey 4
Frank Pacey 2
Emily Pacey 5 Months
Arthur Pacey 6


Aaron Pacey is born Alton, Hampshire, so I assume he's a brother or cousin of Moses.


1841

Wm Pacey 49
Hannah Pacey 40
> Aaron Pacey 11
> Moses Pacey 9
George Ruffell 4

Civil Parish: East Worldham
County/Island: Hampshire
Registration district: Alton

Janey, I will send of for the birth cert. of Elizabeth b1855, then I will know whether she is the elusive 'Aunt Lizzie'. You say that the Spiess births start in 1851 - are there more names to add?.
From the marriage cert. Elizabeth Spiess m. Moses 1869 when she was 32 (b. 1837), following the death of her husband Caspar Spiess. Her Father was Caspard Milder. William Pacey is also on the cert. as Moses Father.
I think that the Spicer family are mis-pronunciations of Spiess (probably pronounced Shpice or something similar).
It's SO complicated with both families having married twice - even my Grandmother married twice!
Regards Pat

"Spicers" in 1881 is just Ancestry's mistranscription of the surname. You have got to look at the original image to see what it actually says.

In this case it's ambiguous ... it looks like Spicess.

For Spiess births, you can do the search yourself at FreeBMD!

Just search for births, surname Spiess; there are not very many, and you can just have a look at the list.

Frans/Franz was born and died in 1851. Since he died in Stepney, where the Elizabeth was born in1855, they were probably siblings.

Name: Marie Pacey
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Spouse Name: William May
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 03 Jun 1895
Parish: Christ Church
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Moses Pacey (deceased occ, Brewers Stoker)
Spouse Father Name: William Charles May

(witnesses were a Francis Edward Pacey and Phobe Bailey)

Chris :)

(apologies if already known)

I'm pretty sure Marie was Patricia's grandmother. ;)

And so that's the marriage I referred to earlier:

Marriages Dec 1877
BAILEY George Westminster 1a 807
Pacey Phoebe Westminster 1a 807

Sure is Janey :-))

Chris :)

Name: Francis Edward Pacey
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Spouse Name: Emma Elizabeth Styles
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1891
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Paddington
County: London
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Mores Pacey
Spouse Father Name: John Styles

(wits. George Arthur Salter, Eliza Styles)


Deaths Mar 1930 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pacey Francis E 62 Paddington 1a 10

Thanks everyone - I will only have to check up on Eliz. Spiess b.1855 with a birth cert. to complete the entire Pacey family. Regards Pat