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Well, one Wall does not a Roome make ...

;)

Ah but there were four Walls who moved to Macclesfield - Eliza and her 3 children Ellen, Fred and Frank. Perhaps he had a sense of humour - my cousin and her father certainly have!

Margaret

Just a thought Janey - weren't Francis and Augustus famous Mon(c)ks?

Now you've got me at it!

Margaret

Just a thought Janey - weren't Francis and Augustus famous Mon(c)ks?

Now you've got me at it!

Margaret

Francis Ward Monck, spiritualist extraordinaire! First person imprisoned for charlatanism under the Vagrancy Act.

I had actually done a whole lot of research on him in the records, when I had no clue where my Ernest Augustus came from and was following ever possible lead. A few months ago someone appeared on the boards asking about him, for some sort of research project. I gave a bunch of info, and PMed, and never heard a word back.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1093778

and my coincidental earlier thread (where I actually led myself astray):

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1080078

Anyhow, although there was some muddling in the early records, it became clear he was a decade or so too young to be my man. Just a coincidence of names -- Ernest Augustus Monck was actually Ernest Augustus Hill, and his father was Francis Hoare Hill. Kept the Francis when he reported his father's name, gave him his own fake surname.

Dang, eh? ;)

There was a George Augustus in FWM's Portsea Monck clan (and an Ernest Adolphus, otherwise accounted for), but I think that's the extent of the appearance of that name. Ernest Augustus was a not uncommon set of names, from the old Queen's German connection. None of those names show up in the Viscount line, though. :(

...... you asked ...... ;)

Mountain out of a Monck Hill ...

Your Roomes do need some more, er, housekeeping done. They're interesting, so I'm going to try to get back to them and take another poke. Work beckons just now.

Hi folks

Marriage cert arrived - 25/12/1879, Joseph Dallows 23, Carriage maker, father Joseph Dallows (dec'd), Tailor and Ellen Wall 21, Silk winder, father Henry Wall (dec'd), Soldier.

According to me Joseph has lopped a couple of years off his age and Ellen has added a couple (to 21), and acquired a father previously unknown. Though in 1911 Joseph is 58, so I assume he is the Joseph Carter Dallorza b June 1853 (there is at least one other Joseph Carter Dallorza born and died as babies).

If I run with the Joseph Dallorzo b 1822, tailor, he is living with the Ley family in 1841 (Head is a tailor, in fact half the street are tailors), borthers Francis (tailor), the infamous Anthony, William and Rosannah. In 1851

Marriage of Joseph to Susan Carter in Jun 1849 seems likely. In 1851, family is at Leicester Street but the baby Joseph is one of those that died. In 1861 family lodging with Smith family, Leicester Street, Joseph 7, Sarah Ann 5, Lucy Martha 1, births found.

Death of Joseph Snr Mar 1870. (Also a death of another Joseph Dallorzo June 1847 - could be father of Joseph Snr).

1871, Susan (widow) 39, and Lucy Martha 11 living Aston (Nr Birmingham) which might be where the Dallorzas and Walls first met (as Ellen's mother married John Thomas Green in Birmingham, late 1870s).

But I can't find Joseph in 1871.

Not yet looked for Susan in later years or 1841, will do now.

Back to the Roomes, son Walter died in WW1, the CWG has his parents as Joseph and Ellen Roome living at 4 Market Street, Whaley Bridge - which is where I live! My cousin's dad remembers the fish shop there.

Margaret

Well who'd a thunk it. The Dallorzos do look like a viable theory, don't they?

The infamous Anthony, snork.


So Joseph is born as Dallorzo c1853, marries as Dallows in 1879, in 1881 they're Dallows, in 1891 they're Roome, and in 1871 he can't be found, if I have it right?

Dallows to Roome sometime between 1881 and 1891.

A brief review, if you wouldn't mind -- when were Joseph and Ellen's children born, and what surname were they registered in? Any born after 1891?

Btw, did I mention I'm a Carter from Northamptonshire? ;)

Hill/Monck's my mum's father line, Carter's my dad's mother's. Met in Canada.

From Irchester/Rushden, though.

Say ... how about something right along the lines of my Hill/Monck-s?

In 1871 he's 18. He's in the military.

And maybe he even changed his name for the same reason - desertion.

A census search turns up only one batch of Roomes in Northamptonshire, in 1891.

Name: Josiah Roome
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Wolverton

Josiah Roome 50
Catherine Roome 50 - Catherine Tamblyn, born Liskeard, Cornwall
Kate Roome 21
Ella Roome 17
Daniel Roome 13


... Interestingly, all born in Birmingham.

Except Catherine, who was born the same place as my Hill/Monck was. ;)

The other Roome household in Birmingham in 1871 is a John and Caroline couple, and also one older Chas Roome, from Middlesex, with daughter.

Just looking for any possible connections with the name ...


Hmm, a Joseph in 1871.

Name: Joseph Roome
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Prisoner
Gender: Male
Where born: Chowbent, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Kirkdale

but he's fully accounted for after that.

For ref, the 1891 household

Joseph Roome 37
Ellen Roome 29
Albert Roome 9
Joseph Roome 7
Frank Roome 5
Frederick Roome 2
Eliza Wall 62
Frederick Wall 23


and the 1901 household

Joseph Roome 47
Ellen Roome 40
Joseph Roome 17
Frank Roome 15
Fredric Roome 12
Lucy Roome 9
Arthur Roome 7
Harry Roome 4
Walter Roome 2
Eliza Wall 69


Checked Arthur, he was registered as Roome, 1893.

As was Frank in 1886. And Joseph in 1884.


In 1881 they were in Derby. Is this Albert?

Births Jun 1881
ROOME Albert Edward Derby 7b _05

Interesting:

Births Sep 1881
Dallows Albert Derby 7b 539

and also:

Births Dec 1880
Dallows Joseph Frederick Derby 7b 464
Deaths Jun 1881
DALLOWS Joseph Frederick 0 Derby 7b 271

... but I see there were quite a lot of Roome births in Derby around that time, and loads of them in the 1881 census. It looks like maybe that's where they picked up the name. They're the only Roomes in Macclesfield.


In any event, the switch to Roome seems to have happened quite soon after the 1881 census.

Hi Janey

Dollorzos is the best I can do (or rather you can do). I must have a look at other trees with the name, as you suggested.

You have all the Roomes except Nelley b 1901, died Dec 1911, and Harold b 1904.

Otherwise you have it all right, I think.

Did you mean you had found Joseph in 1871? I think not or you would have given me the reference - but your idea is not daft, I have another rellie who disappears in 1881 and 1891 and changed his name for the same reason - and has never been found until he marries in the 1890s - also in blooming Macclesfield! But he changed his name back again, and inserted the "made-up" name as a second name.

I am going with Albert Dallows born Sept 1881. This is probably another certificate to get to prove his mother is Ellen Wall. I explained at some point that this is not my family, I am trying to "do it on the cheap" for a friend whom I have always regarded as a cousin. For my own family I have about 300 certificates, and I well realise that at some points I will have to spend money.

Yes, Joseph Frederick is likely his elder brother. And yes, I can see lots of Roomes in Derby. Perhaps something to follow up on later (plus the Birmingham ones). The next child born Sept 1884 in Macclesfield is called Roome, as are all the rest (according to Cheshirebmd). So the name change was between Sept 81 and Sept 84 (sorry, I see you've twigged that).

It is very kind of you (and others) to help me so much, gratefully appreciated. We might make an old man very happy.

One more slight mystery. I tried to find marriages of all these Roomes in Macclesfield, and children thereof. I know Albert (Dallows) married Annie Mathers, one child Frank, father of my friend, married Annie Mathers. Joseph married Mary Alice Plant 1912, no apparent children. Frank d 1917 WW1. Frederick - no marriage. Lucy m George Davenport 1911, one child Lucy 1916. Arthur - no marriage. Harry m 3 possible ladies, surnames Lea, Giblin or Depledge Sep 1922, no apparent children. Walter d 1916. Nelly d 1911. Harold - no marriage. Seems odd for so many of them to have either not married, or had only one child, though of course by then people knew what caused it!

Perhaps I should have done this years ago (but the resources were not there), but my friend is childless having had a stillborn baby after IVF treatment. Her own parents were married for 16 years before she was born, and her father's parents were married for 13 years before her dad was born. Seems a possible genetic issue.

Anyway, off to look for Susan Carter!

Margaret

Just one tip on Harry -- the marriage in 1923 is after 1911, and so the bride's surname is matched to him. She was Hannah Depledge.

Marriages Sep 1922
Depledge Hannah *Roome* Macclesfield 8a 398
ROOME Harry *Depledge* Macclesfield 8a 398

No kids, per the complete index at Ancestry.


And sorry -- "In 1871 he's 18. He's in the military" was a scenario. ;)

A very likely hypothesis, though. India and all that, at that time. (I did try searching at fibis.org for the Dallows/Dallorzo surnames, but no record came up.)

My Hill/Monck joined up likely in 1873, went to India, and deserted about 1878 when the promised discharge turned into being sent to Afghanistan, was in the 1881 census with his new name, and married under it in 1883. As far as I can tell, first child born in 1884 was never registered, probably still trying to fly under the radar.

Hi Janey

Have just ordered certs for birth of Joseph Carter Dallorza 1853, marriage of Joseph Dallorzo to Susan Carter in 1849 and birth of Albert Dallows in 1881. Did a bit of spare-time work last night, earned £60 not in the household budget, so reckoned I could spend a bit without feeling guilty!

Sad news about Joseph Roome/Dallows in 1871, but not to worry.

Margaret

Hi Janey (and anyone else),

Can find no death of Ellen Roome. Joseph possibly 1934 Bollington, age 79. Tried Derbyshire too, given that they were living there in 1917 when son Frank died. No luck.

Margaret

Janey

No death for Susan Dallorzo and variants.

Margaret

Any sign of Susan or Lucy after 1871?

I can't find any.

They moved to Birmingham!

Christenings per IGI, parents Joseph Dallorzo and Susan, all at St David, Birmingham, all christened 2/4/1866:

Joseph Carter Dallorzo, b 12/5/1853
Sarah Ann Dallorzo, b 27/5/1855
Lucy Martha Dallorzo, b 29/1/1860
Lizzy Rose Dalllorzo, b 26/9/1861

All extracted records.

Plus submitted record:

Ellen Rose Dallorzo b 13/7/1866, parents Anthony Dallorzo and Trythena Elizabeth Wotton. She married Arthur John Pritchard in Yardley, Worcs, 1/6/1893.

Phew!

Margaret

How very excellent.

Coincidentally ... ain't it amazing? ... a batch baptism of four kids was exactly how I found my Hills before they became Moncks!

Well, not me; my kind mentor who had listened to my loony theories for months was visiting the Cornwall archives, and found them, and was about bowled over when he did. I'd done it all wrong and got the right answer. ;)


But after 1871, then? Susan and Lucy are in Birmingham in 1871, no death or marriage or census for either of them after that, that I can find.

I was trying to follow this! It went off at a tangent with the Dallorzos, BUT have just done an Ancestry search and there are trees ......

Lizzie Rose went to USA arriving in 1887 Sarah Ann went to USA arriving 1880. They both married and there are copies of 1900 census submitted.

Marriages Jun 1881 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DALLORZO Lizzie Rose Shoreditch 1c 249
Nodder William John Shoreditch 1c 249

Not sure if you've got this or want this !!!