Find Ancestors

Monday morning now.

I have Frances' Birth Certificate and also her Marriage Certificate. BC states papa as Walter Selley, Tailor and mama as Jane Moon. MC states papa as James Moon, Butler.

From all the help given last night, I am going to work on the following theory:-

That Frances never knew that her real papa was WS.

That the Kennards who Frances is living with in 1851 and I found long ago are indeed her real aunt and uncle and that Sarah Kennard is probably Sarah nee Moon, i.e., Jane's sister. Frances must have been sent to live with them because I guess her mama was in fairly dire straits with more little b.....ds running around and seemingly still no man to support her or them.

Incidentally, since last night, I found many more Moons being born to Jane's parents. Also Jane's mother's name was Frances, which is a BIG HELP.

That James Moon, Butler is probably Frances' half-brother born out of wedlock again to Jane - what was the gal up to!!

Etc., etc., etc. I've printed off this thread and probably now have enough homework to keep me out of mischief for a bit, at least!

I have a wonderful studio portrait of Frances all dressed up in terrific finery and also a family group photo of her with husband Edmund and all seven of their children. He was a naval man, fought and wounded at the Battle of Fatsham Creek, then a Coastguard, then a Boarding House Keeper in Sandgate; that beautiful house is now a hotel and our family all celebrated lunch there last year. Strange feeling to eat in a room that is now a restaurant but back then would have been their parlour I guess, looking out over the Esplanade to the Channel. Bless them.

I'll close this thread now. Heartfelt thanks to all who helped me.

Nicola

If you'll forgive me ... from Nicola's first post:

"However, on Frances' birth certificate the name of the father is given as Walter SELLEY, Tailor.
And on her marriage certificate in 1861 (same church), she states that her father's name is James MOON, Butler."


I'm afraid I don't know where

"James Moon b. 1845 father possibly James surname unknown a Butler"

has come from. Not that I don't like a good wild theory myself.


But I'll bet Nicola is going to get the certificates and see what they say.

I think that is my point

to summarize
children of Jane Moon

Frances Moon b. 1841 father William Selley a tailor
James Moon b. 1845 father possibly James surname unknown a Butler
Henry White father Charles White

1) a coincidence that there is a James Moon butler in 1841

2) Frances may not have known that her father was William Selley but knew that he half brother's father was called James and was a butler and simply gave that name at her marriage to disguise illigitimacy

edit: Yes, Victoria. That was before I finished the job of finding what Nicola was looking for in the first place.


Fyi Victoria -- "NB father probably called James and was a butler but surname NOT Moon"


From Nicola's first post:

"on Frances' birth certificate the name of the father is given as Walter SELLEY, Tailor."

That person existed and was in the same place as Jane Moon in the 1841 census, i.e. just about exactly the time Frances was conceived - both were in Palace subdistrict of Brighthelmstone.


From Ann's post on page 1, the 1881 census:

"James MOON Head M Male 55 Brighton, Sussex, England Butler"

A James Moon who was a butler existed in 1881. This is his household in 1861:

James Moon 38
Esther Moon 41
James Moon 15
Esther Moon 10
Henry Moon 6
George Moon 4
Benjamine Moon 1
Robert Kensett 33
Walter Walder 22
Eli Walder 20
Felix Walder 18


and in 1851 in Old Shoreham:
(Nicola - you should fix those surnames at Ancestry!)

James Mone 29
Esther Moore 32
James Moore 5
Mary Ann Moore 3
Esther Moore 4 Mo

However - Frances married in 1861and in 1861 James Moon the butler was an ag lab; his son James was a "house boy".

It's fairly unlikely that Frances Moon was the daughter (or her brother James Moon was the son) of a Mr. Moon, since her mother was a Moon by birth. Whoever the James Moon drafted for the job was, he wasn't likely her father.

James 1848's birth and marriage certificates do need checking out.

Evie to quote yourself "edit: Okay, it's getting crowded and repetitive here, so I'll bow out."

If I may quote myself from the previous page:

"Who did he [James] state as father on his marriage certificate, I wonder?!"

So many cooks ...

in 1871 James Moon b. 1845 Milkman was married to Ann

Marriages Sep 1867 (>99%)
ADAMS Ann Steyning 2b 425 Scan available - click to view
MOON James Steyning 2b 425 Scan available - click to view

perhpas if you get his birth and marriage cert , maybe his father was the James Moon - butler and Frances assumed that her father was the same and gave that name when she got married
NB father probably called James and was a butler but surname NOT Moon)

1871
Name: James Moon
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Hove
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View Image
Registration district: Steyning
Sub registration district: Shoreham
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 283
Household Members:
Name Age
James Moon 27
Ann Moon 32


Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1092; Folio: 142; Page: 59; GSU

here's Sarah Moon marrying Thomas Kennard (refer to Frances in the 1851 census)

SARAH MOON Pedigree
Female Family

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Marriages:
Spouse: THOMAS KENNARD Family
Marriage:
22 JUL 1828 Steyning, Sussex, England

Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
M150732 1565 - 1925

Per the GRO marriage info Victoria posted, Jane Moon married Charles White 1848.

There's no James Moon birth to match the son in 1861, but there is this:

Births Jun 1849
White James Brighton 7 325

- a perfect match.

I wonder whether he was born shortly enough after the marriage that Charles decided he wasn't his, and split?!

The household in 1851:

Name: Jane White
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles
Where born: Steyning, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: Brighthelmstone
Town: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex

Charles White 36
Jane White 40
> James White 6
Henry White 1


One of these:

Births Sep 1845
Moon James Steyning 7 449
Moon James Brighton 7 291

1861

Name: Jane White
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1808
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Kapings, Sussex, England (mistranscribed should be Steyning)

Civil Parish: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View Image

Registration district: Brighton
Sub registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 63
Household Members:
Name Age
Jane White 53
James Moon 11 (mistranscribed should be age 16)

1851
Name: Jane White
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles
Gender: Female
Where born: Steyning, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: Brighthelmstone
Town: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View Image

Registration district: Brighton
Sub registration district: Kemp Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 1h
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles White 36
Jane White 40
James White 6 b. 1845
Henry White 1

Births Sep 1845 (>99%)
Moon James Steyning 7 449 Scan available - click to view
Moon James Brighton 7 291 Scan available - click to view

looks like Jane had James prior to marriage , he took on the name White in 1851 but reverted to Moon in 1861 (the 1861 census dob for James is given as 1850 but Jane was already married to Charles by then )

So I think the Jane Moon in 1841 that Victoria posted must be yours -- I had started off looking at her in the very first place but wanted some details like DOB to go on before posting random possibilities. ;)

I'm just not finding James and Jane in 1861. The big thing that's needed for finding people is *birthdates*!

Okay, I had Jane's, so here they are:

Name: Jane White
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1808
Relation: Wife
Where born: Kapings, Sussex, England

Name: James Moon
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Servant*
* malarkey, the "Son" couldn't be clearer - Ancestry just won't deal with things like different surnames
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: Brighton

(The "St Peter" doesn't help for searching, you see.)


So she had James w/o marrying, too!

Who did he state as father on his marriage certificate, I wonder?!

Well, the 'FRANCES' is a bit of a giveaway so probably another family member.

Am going to sign off now, so please don't think I'm being rude if I don't answer any more tonight.

TVM again.

1881 - d'you think this is a connection?

James MOON Head M Male 47 Howmunden, Kent, England Journeyman Miller (Corn)
Emma MOON Wife M Female 42 Speldhurst, Kent, England
Frederick MOON Son Male 23 Maresfield, Sussex, England Ag Lab
George H. MOON Son Male 21 Ewhaven, Sussex, England Ag Lab
Harry MOON Son Male 19 Tunbridge, Kent, England Ag Lab
James F. MOON Son Male 18 Mearsfield, Sussex, England Ag Lab
Albert MOON Son Male 14 Mearsfield, Sussex, England Ag Lab
Thomas MOON Son Male 13 Goudhurst, Kent, England Scholar
Spencer MOON Son Male 11 Goudhurst, Kent, England Scholar
Alfred E.C. MOON Son Male 9 Goudhurst, Kent, England Scholar
William P. MOON Son Male 7 Goudhurst, Kent, England Scholar
Frank MOON Son Male 5 Goudhurst, Kent, England Scholar
Frances E. MOON Daur Female 3 Goudhurst, Kent, England
Lois T. MOON Daur Female 11 m Goudhurst, Kent, England


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling Hope Mill Cottages
Census Place Goudhurst, Kent, England
Family History Library Film 1341224
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0939 / 30
Page Number 1

You gals are quite amazing. I just don't know how you do it.

And here's me feeling SO PROUD when I do crack a hard nut (and we've got some, believe me, like all the rest of us), but you lot have really taken the biscuit this evening.

I have so much info now that you probably won't hear a squeak out of me for many weeks - not.

Heartfelt thanks, as always.

well hats off to Evie for finding Walter!!! you've done it again kid!!!!!

Thank you to you all for the info you've given me.

Had found our Frances living with Uncle and Aunt Kennard but hadn't connected it up yet. I like the notion that Sarah Kennard is probably nee Moon and therefore my GGGM's sister.

Will research that now.

I don't know how to cut and paste from Ancestry into here but this is where I found Jane WHITE living with James MOON son:-
1861, Sussex, St. Peter, District 4.

What do you think?

This could possibly be his death, but since ages weren't shown in the GRO index at that time (and may not be shown on the death cert), it might not be possible to determine.

Deaths Jun 1860
SELLEY Walter Bermondsey 1d 54

I actually think Nicola has that info already, Victoria, i.e. marriage of Frances Moon etc.

It was James Moon and Walter Selley she was looking for, and Ann and I have found them.

I'll see what happens to Walter after 1841, if that's okay.

marriage of Frances Moon

Marriages Dec 1861 (>99%)
Eade Richard Brighton 2b 338 Scan available - click to view
HAFFENDEN Kate Brighton 2b 338 Scan available - click to view
Hooker Edmund Brighton 2b 338 Scan available - click to view
Moon Frances Brighton 2b 338 Scan available - click to view