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Oh, it's a sleepless night again, I'm giddy ...

I was just reading back through, and got to the transcript of the reg of MIE (Kimberley) Carter's death, where it says

Occupation of father - Circus clown

and just imagined how it must have felt reading that.

*Oh good. My great-whatever grandfather was Bozo.*
All this work, and I'm descended from Bozo ... I think I'll go back to bed ...

I'm in uncontrollable guffaws.


Oops, he's your dearest's gr-whatever grandfather, not yours, is it? Well there you are. You may mock him.

Hi EvieB, I'm still here. Just spent an hour updating my virus scanner. It sort of got mucked up. I'm allowed to have a really good one on my home computer because of work. Couldn't find it. The nice help line people fixed the problem.

Re the circus clown bit. You have hit the nail right on the head. Our children are still paying out their dad for being descendent from a circus clown. When I first received the certificate I just took one look at him and said. "Well this really explains everything!" I'm sure he'll be dining out on the story for years to come.

I think I have at least three certificates to come including the ones for CE Carter's birth. I know you disagree but I still have a niggle that somewhere we will find his marriage to Mariann Kimberley. I wish that woman hadn't kept on changing her name all the time. And no I haven't forgotten that we apparently have her on board the boat coming to Australia as a Miss Kimberley. Unless of course there were two with similar names!!

I need some sleep now. I'll start fresh tomorrow. And no I don't think I'm finished yet. This is just getting interesting. What happened to the circus folk?? Why have all these people disappeared from the 1901 census?? What happened to CE Carters siblings? What will a search of ships coming to Aust in 1910 show. I've only done up to 1909. I still have my subscription to use for that. Where did CE and MIE meet up to be called Mr and Mrs Carter??
Oh goodnight. I'll start on someting else in a minute and never get to bed. Val

May I scream. Please please.

Looking at things which match and don't make sense.

Have certificates.
Birth, Charles Edward Carter 4th February 1876, 168 High St, West Sunderland, Durham.
Father: James Carter
Mother; Hannah Maria Carter (nee Green)
Occupation of father: Outfitter

Have marriage certificate:
6th Dec 1896
Charles Edward Carter aged 23, which puts his date of birth 1873 (?1876)
Elizabeth Ann Bassenger aged 26 (dob 1870)

Rank profession: Able Seaman RN
Father: Charles is James Carter
Rank profession of father: rope maker!!
Father Elizabeth: Harry Bassenger occup. brewer

Marriage solemnized in St Lukes Church parish of Victoria Docks in the county West Ham & Essex.
Witness to marriage Sarah bassenger.


Did an 1881 census Bassenger search and came up with:

Martha BASSENGER Lodger (Head) M Female 40 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Tailoress

Elizh. BASSENGER Lodger Daur Female 16 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Domestic Serv

Cha. BASSENGER Lodger Son Male 14 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Errand Boy

Hannah GREEN Lodger W Female 62 Poplar, Middlesex, England Tailoress

Also found 1901 census address search

Hannah Carter, Pauper inmate, widow F. age 61. Birth year 1840 occupation tailoress.

What am I looking at;

Did Charles mother, or grandmother with the same name, live in the same house as Elizabeth Bassenger who Charles married. If Elizabeth Bassenger was 16 in 1881 she would have been born in 1865 making her 31 when she married Charles.

There were 26 Charles Carters born in 1876. This birth certificate gives that as his date of birth. The marriage certificate calculates the dob as 1873 . Unless of course he lied about his aged because in 1896 when he married he would have been 20.

I am still waiting for more info from national Archives re a Charles Carter.

Now please tell me what I am looking at. Or at what I am looking.


Sorry forgot. Tried to find death for Elizabeth Carter. Oh there are plenty of them but none which match her age on her marriage certificate or give Charles as her spouse.

But her age on her marriage certificate may be incorrect. She may have been anywhere up to 6 y ears older. Oh damn, strewth, pickled onions. I have to go back and search those stupid old book things again.


Edit, edit. Have death. Elizabeth Ann Carter March 1905 Sunderland. Reference 10a 434.

Just found marriage page
Place Kingston (which after google mapping turns out to be near London Middlesex as well as other places) Ref 2a 786 Date June 1910
Three names (yes only three) on the page

ABRAHAM Winifred
CARTER Charles Edward
DWYER Beresford (or force) (can't read the scribble)

Why only 3 names!!? Would need to look at 1911 census to see if Winifred and Mr Dwyer are together.

What's all this brouhaha?

Last things first. Searched for surname Kim* married Jun Q 1910. No what's-er-name.

Looked at original GRO image for Kim* for Jun Q 1910. Not there.

Looked at the whole list for Kingston for Jun Q 1910. Seached down the list for Mar and for Eliz and for Iv -- nobody who looks like her. Paid particular attention to the ones with indications of transcription problems. Nope. Looked at the image for this one:

CLARK Elsie Kingston 2a 78[5_]

It is indeed 785. Searched by page no. w/o vol. no. for that quarter. No luck.

Away you go. Order the marriage certificate.

Who knows? Maybe Charles had a totally different second wife before leaving England. Maybe that one is a different Charles. Only one way to find out!

Moving on --

"Did Charles mother, or grandmother with the same name, live in the same house as Elizabeth Bassenger who Charles married."

I'd guess grandmother, if she's 62 in 1881. Lemme look around ...

1851


Name: Hannah M Green
(who became Hannah M Carter, mother of Charles Edward Carter)
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Hannah M
Gender: Female
Where born: St Brides, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Bride
County/Island: Middlesex

Hannah M Green 44 (already widowed)
Hannah M Green 14
William H Green 10
George Green 10
Hance A Green 70
Emily Grace Green 4
Jane Leach 65


1841:

Civil Parish: St Bride and Precinct

George Green 33
Hannah Green 34
Hannah Green 5
Julia Green 3
William Green 1
George Green 1



So yup. Elizabeth Ann Bassenger who married Charles Edward Carter was sharing quarters with CEC's maternal grandmother in 1881.

People had to meet somehow before they married!

There could be a family connection, of course.

IGI

HANNAH MARIA GREEN
Birth: 01 APR 1836
Christening: 18 JUN 1837 St Bride Fleet St, London, London, England
Father: GEORGE ARTHUR GREEN
Mother: HANNAH MARIA
Batch No.: C022427

Re the 1910 marriage.

There are no Carter-Abraham births 1911 onward.

There are four Dwyer-Abraham births, although they are in Derbyshire/Staffordshire, but no other potential Dwyer-Abraham marriage 1890 onward. So it looks like the missing bride belongs to that Charles Edward Carter.

Hi EB I'm here and reading. So I'm not going crazy there are/were two Hannah M. Greens. Good.

Thank you for clearing up that point.

No marriage between MIE Kimberley and CE Carter. Remember MIE Kimberley (supposedly) went to Aust under her maiden name in 1909/1910.

I am assuming I can apply for marriage certificate without the bride's name.
Consider it done. Of course it could be another Charles Edward Carter.

While speaking with National Archives they asked me was I interested in CE Carter's migration details. I said Yes please. They will be included in the info about his "request for campaign stars/medals".

I am endeavouring to write my communications with a minimum of words of the alphabetic variety in order to promote succinct sentences which are uncomplicated for literary challenged personages to decipher.

How'm I doing??

Me, I have no prob with quantity of words. It's run-on sentences and absence of paragraphing that drive me bonkers!

The Hannah Greens are confirmation that the CEC who married Bassenger was the one from Sunderland, anyhow, since Hannah Jr was the Sunderland CEC's mother.

I'm tired and growing dim. Yes, you may order the marriage cert with one party's name only -- in fact it's generally safer to, since pre-1911 one can't be sure who someone married w/o the cert anyhow.

Will be waiting for those emigration details with bated breath!

Ok certificate applied for.
Last certificates took 11 days to get here. Pretty quick.

Going back to re-search FMP for the voyages. Still have subscript there.

Also might try incoming to Sydney NSW end.

Thank you. By the way, would you like to borrow my labrador ....... he just loves cats.

Goodnight

No further forward, still waiting for replies.

Spent considerable time writing up all the info. Have a page and a half of questions and loose ends. Answers to these will just require searching Free BDM or Ancestry.

One anomaly.
If MIE and CE went to Australia on 7 July and 21 Aug 1909 respectively, the 1910 marriage between unknown and CE Carter is irrelevant. (I've sent for the cert).

Have also placed enquiry with your National Archives people regarding passports for UK citizens travelling to Australia

Notwithstanding the obvious that they never married in UK - could she possibly have travelled to Aust under her maiden name because she went as an assisted passage immigrant and it was cheaper to travel that way rather than as a married woman?

Most of other questions relate to dates of birth, marriage or death of different individuals.

Waiting for replies to one of MIE and CE's children's birth cert, and the query re the campaign medals.

Hey, look status quo. Talking to myself again. Don't really need this to be back up there but wish to record information so it can be referenced if needed.

(1)Campaign medals and stars. The files have been found and will be made available to me. I've paid my fee. Having the digital image appear on the site may take up to 30 days. It is definitely to do with the merchant navy. That was in the description of the info.

(2) Have received certificate for marriage of Charles Edward Carter and unknown missing person from the marriage index. Does not match if the following events are correct.
MIE and Charles Edward went to Australia in 1909 (on separate voyages). Charles was born in 1876. Charles father's name was James.

Surplus Certificate
This certificate was for a marriage between Charles Edward Carter and Georgina Maud Hierons, 26 Apr 1910 in Kingston Surrey. This CE Carter's fathers name was also CE Carter. This CE Carter was also 12 years younger and also a bachelor.


Anyone researching Charles Edward Carter aged 22 (whose father's name was also CE Carter) who married a Georgina Maud Hierons aged 24 on 26 Apr 1910. Georgina's father's name was George Hierons. If you'd like a copy of their marriage certificate, just yell.

This thread may now slide into the background until there's more news

Certificates have arrived. I have two. Will deal with them separately.

England to Australia 1909
Recap on what info I have.

There is no record of a marriage between CE Carter and MIE Kimberley in London between 1906 (CE Carter’s wife Elizabeth died in 1906) and 1909.

MIE Kimberley travelling to NSW on 7 Jul 1909.
CE Carter travelling to NSW on 21 Aug 1909. Both on board Marathon.

From Reel 195 St Marks Church England Church Records Picton NSW listing six children all with family name Carter all born between 1913 and 1919 (two without dates of birth, and two are missing). Differing dates of baptism.

Highly suspect 1947 death certificate for MIE Carter listing nine children born between 1911 and 1927. Starting with Nellie, including Walter and Mabel Grace, concluding with Roy.

Electoral Roll Picton NSW for 1930 and 1936 showing CE Carter and MIE Carter living at same address.

Marriage certificates for Walter Carter 1937 (and his spouse) and Mabel Grace Carter 1934 (and her spouse). Marriage transcript for Nellie Myra Carter born 1911. All listing MIE Kimberley and CE Carter as parents.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Because the birth of the children falls outside of the historical indexes it is difficult to obtain certificates for them. Today we received this birth extract info for Mabel Grace via a “special circumstance” proviso. We are waiting for Walter’s certificate to arrive. Walter is the third and Mabel G is the fourth child in the family.

Birth Extract Certificate.
The birth of : Mabel Grace Kimberley
Date of Birth: 19 October 1915
Place of Birth NSW
Fathers Name: -
Mothers Name: Marianne Ivy Elizabeth

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Searching the historical indexes shows that no female with the surname Kimberley married any male with the surname Carter between 1909 and 1958 in New South Wales.

Acceptance will come. ;)

Yer hubby's ancestors weren't married!

Well ... not to each other, anyway. ;)

Hi EB, Yep, I think I have my documented proof that they were not married. Now I have to work out why, don't I. And I also need to know (1)where Mariann went between the time she left home and the time she embarked for Australia. (2) Which of a Charles Edward Carter's marriages between 1906 and 1909, if any, fits this family (3) when they started calling their children "Carter" (4)how and where they met (which might be an impossibility). (5) What other info would be on a full birth certificate.

With regard to where Mariann went there are a few possibilities of her working as a servant in the 1901 census. 1911 census is no good because she has left for Aust.

There were two certificates in this batch.

Remember months ago when I first started this, I said the reason for being so public was because we were looking for OH living relatives.

Second certificate was his original birth certificate.

He has siblings, other than Robert Charles Edward B. who died in 1941 aged 2. There is a brother John J. born c1937 and a sister Dawn E. born 1938.

Next step is to find out if these two were also adopted or whether they stayed with their mother. No deaths or marriages for them under their birth name in the NSW BDM within the time frame allowed for searching.

And yes I do not mind acknowledging that you were right, are right! Constantly! I just need the documentation that goes with the gut feeling.

Edit. Just had a thought that I really need all the birth certificates to work out whether MIE was the mother of all of them and when CE Carter started to be acknowledged as the father. Oh bother!

Looking at the dates, I wondered: (my) Charles Edward Carter was a ship's steward at some point, no? I wonder whether they met on board when MIE travelled to Australia, and he completed his voyage back and then went back out joined her? Same vessel, a few weeks later.

Never fear -- I'm perfectly happy when somebody gets the docs that prove I'm right. ;)

Urgh, I'm getting them muddled in my head with somebody with a similar tale, only her rellies parked themselves in South Africa first before going and shacking up in Australia and pretending they were married ...

And actually - remember ...? Not at all! I hadn't even seen your oeuvre that far back, to know it was living relations you were looking for!

On that one, adoptions in Australia, I bow out. On yer own. With my best wishes of course. ;)


... what's this unexpected error crud? ... ah, I see, I have successfully posted two blank messages. You can't do that if you try. Kind of like catching your belt loop on the door jamb thingy ... So I try again!

... that makes three ...


Alrighty now -- here we go!

Well you did warn me not to delete anything.

I thought it was you with your expert knowledge messing up my deletion.


Hey I can not only delete threads (which I didn't because it's still jolly well there) I can also doom whole boards. Yippppeeee!

I'll fill you in on the other stuff a little later. Once I have visited the place where all this happened and checked out some ridgy didge records for myself I will put this part of the family to bed and start on the other side.

Now that lot had 23 children in one family including two sets of triplets and one set of twins. I kid you not!!

Then of course there's my lot. Very dignified, sophisticated mob with no skeletons in the closet, oh what a fibber you are Val!!

Received transcript of Beatrice Ivy Christina Carter's marriage to Reginald Rupert Bricknell in 1946. Shows Beatrice, who was the second youngest of the children, was the daughter of CE Carter and Marian Ivy Kimberley.

Marriage took place 7 months before Mariann died. Address of Beatrice is given as the same place CE and Mariann lived.

Well now, isn't this a fun thread!

Any more news, like about the Campaign Stars and medals, for CE Carter? Right bloke?