Find Ancestors

Hi,

I posted previously about this but have come up a blank everywhere on the leads I was given.

I am looking for details on an Annie Oliphant born 1875 and married in 1900 at Dalry, Ayr to James Thomson. On her marriage certificate it states that her parents were Peter Oliphant and Mary Boyd with Mary being deceased at the date of marriage.

My query is that I can find no marriage record between Peter and Mary and no birth record for Annie. I am assuming that therefore the birth was illegitimate. I am wondering if there is anyway that this can be traced? Familysearch does not record anything, nor Scotlands people and am not sure where to go next if indeed I can go anywhere at all!

Cenus records do not seem to show anything either..and I am pulling my hair out and about to give up following this line.

Any help in restoring my sanity would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Rachelle

have you tried searching for Annie Boyd???
if her father recognised her as his after birth he may have then given her permission to take his name.

pricegen.com/resources/illegitimacy.htm

Hi,

Yes I search for Ann Boyd but nothing there either. Thanks for the link, I am assuming that it would have been fairly similiar in Scotland as it was in England.

Thanks for the tip!

Rachelle

We're having an epidemic of multiple posts ...

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1121043

You have posted previously, as you say -- and most people reading this current post will have no idea what was in the previous thread.

My last comment in that thread was:

"I would consider the possibility that Annie's parents weren't actually married, and she might have been registered as Annie Boyd at birth. There are 85 Annie Boyd births 1900-1910 ... none in Dalry, but 15 in Ayrshire."

Surname: Boyd This interesting surname is of Scottish and Irish origin, and is thought to be locational from the island of Bute in the Firth of Clyde; the placename being of uncertain etymology. Locational surnames were developed when former inhabitants of a place moved to another area, usually to seek work, and were best identified by the name of their birthplace. The name is very numerous in Ulster and in some cases appears as O'Boyd. There is also a Manx name which is the same as the Irish "MacElwee", but which was changed to Boyd. This name was from "MacGiolla Buidhe", meaning the yellow-haired youth's son. The modern surname can be found as Boyd, Boyde and Boyda. Among the sample recordings in Scotland are the marriage of Robert Boyd and Marie Irving on December 3rd 1639 at St. Nicholas', Aberdeen, and the christening of George Hay, son of William Boyd and Janet Mackie, on June 19th 1796 at Old Machar, Aberdeen. A Coat of Arms granted to a Boyd family of Trochrig depicts, on a blue shield, a fesse chequy silver and red between three red heraldic roses in chief, and crescent, silver, in base. The Crest is a hand pointing to a sun dial, gold. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of Robert de Boyd, which was dated 1205, recorded at Irvine, Scotland, during the reign of King William "The Lion" of Scotland, 1165 1214.

don't know if any of these variations help?
also have you already tried just putting A in instead of Annie/Ann. it could have been wrongly transcribed as alice or some such name or be a middle name you never know.

yes i would assume it would be similar - when Kings and Queens ruled instead of government it was nearly always the same.

I'm extremely confused. In your other thread, you said:

"Trying to find any information on Peter Oliphant who married Mary Boyd. They went on to have at least one daughter, Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson.
I cannot locate any records whatsoever on the pair other than them appearing on a marriage certifice for Annie in 1928, but Mary is marked as deceased."

In this thread, you say:

"Annie Oliphant born 1875 and married in 1900 at Dalry, Ayr to James Thomson."

I rather naturally assumed that Annie Oliphant, daughter of Peter Oliphant and Mary Boyd, was born 1900 or after. Born 1875 and married 1928 would be rather unusual.

If she was only married once, to Thomson, you have now given two wildly disparate dates for the marriage -- 1928 in the other thread and 1900 in this thread.

If it is a case of two marriages, where has this info about the birthdate and first marriage now come from?

1861 census


Name: Peter Oliphant
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Isabella
Gender: Male
Where born: Dalry, Ayr
Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
County: Ayrshire
Address: Meadowhead Cot
Occupation: Scholars
ED: 16
Household schedule number: 74
Line: 13
Roll: CSSCT1861_84

James Oliphant 49
Isabella Oliphant 45
Agnes Oliphant 16
Peter Oliphant 13
Mary Oliphant 11
William Oliphant 9
John Oliphant 7
Janet Oliphant 5


He is not with the family in 1871. He is not the Peter Oliphant in Aberdeenshire in 1871, as that one has independent existence in 1861.

Searching just for Peter born 1847-49 in Dalry, there's no one who looks like a mistranscription of Oliphant. Any mistranscription is likely to affect the first 3 letters of the surname, so it would be very difficult to find him if his birthdate / place of birth are recorded differently in 1871.

On a general search of all UK censuses, the 1861 is the only one where he appears.

Can't find the household at all in 1851, searching by given names, birthdates/places, etc.

I'm wondering whether the 1861 household was a blended household, and some of the children may have been Isabella's from a previous marriage -- i.e. that perhaps Oliphant was James's stepfather's surname.

An interesting Annie in 1881.

Name: Annie D Boyd
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: William
> Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire
Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
Town: Dalry
County: Ayrshire
Address: Smith Street
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 115
Line: 13
Roll: cssct1881_183

William Boyd 46
Mary Boyd 41
William Boyd 19
John K Boyd 17
Mary Boyd 15
Jane Boyd 10
Annie D Boyd 8


But that household is the same in 1871 (minus Annie), so unlikely I guess ... unless Mary *subsequently* married Peter Oliphant and Annie used his name ...

There's a spare Annie Boyd in 1891 who isn't there in 1881:

Annie Boyd
abt 1873
Dalry, Ayrshire
Servant
Dalry Ayrshire

Annie Boyd
abt 1874 Dalry, Ayrshire
Grand Neice (good grief ... i before e ...)
Dalry Ayrshire


Your Annie in 1901:

Name: Annie Thomson
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : James
Gender: Female
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire
Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
Town: Dalry
County: Ayrshire

Hi Evie,

Sorry that was me getting my generations confused.

The details that I wrote below " am looking for details on an Annie Oliphant born 1875 and married in 1900 at Dalry, Ayr to James Thomson.

On her marriage certificate it states that her parents were Peter Oliphant and Mary Boyd with Mary being deceased at the date of marriage" are correct.

As far as I can see the last entry you made :

Name: Annie Thomson
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : James
Gender: Female
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire
Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
Town: Dalry
County: Ayrshire

Is the correct daughter of Peter Oliphant and Mary Boyd.

What I should have said in my original post the other day (and I could kick myself for getting the names confused!) is that :

Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson went on to marry William Robert Bishop (b 1902 in Bendigo Australia) in Dalry in 1928. They went on to have 5 sons, Allan, edwin, James, Gordon and Neil. It would seem that they went back and forth from Australia to Scotland before resetting in Australia and eventually dying.

I know that Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson had a younger sister Jessie but we are unsure of her correct name as no real searches result i her and the census cannot be viewed yet after 1901.

Unfortunately everyone is deceased here that I could ask .

Apologies for getting my generations confused in my other post

This is maddening, isn't it just?

No sign of any of those people in 1851. I suspect Dalry wasn't some of the children's birthplaces at all, just a convenient answer.

There is this rather odd and interesting household in 1851.

Name: James Harvie
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relationship: Head
Spouse's Name: Janet
Gender: Male
Where born: Beith, Ayrshire
Parish Number: 598
Civil Parish: Kilmaurs
Town: Kilmaurs
County: Ayrshire
Address: Irvine Vennal
Occupation: Railway Porter
ED: 7
Page: 18 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 73
Line: 3
Roll: CSSCT1851_134

James Harvie 29
> Janet Oliphant 24
Janet Harvie 5 Mo
Elisabeth Harvie 15 (visitor)


Janet could just have had a son 4-5 years earlier ...


Janet may have been a sister of James Oliphant, father of Peter in the 1861 census; the family in 1841 in Kilmaurs:


James Oliphant 56
Janet Oliphant 50
> James Oliphant 25 (rounded dob 1816 - 1812 in 1861 census)
Gilbert Oliphant 20
Mary Oliphant 20
Thomas Oliphant 15
> Janet Oliphant 14
Margaret Oliphant 11

This is the only person who fits for Isabella Oliphant (in 1861) in the 1851 census, per birthdate/place:

Name: Isabella Gunion
Age: 35
> Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relationship: Daughter
Mother's Name: Agnes
Gender: Female
> Where born: Kirkmaiden, Wigtonshire
Parish Number: 890
Civil Parish: Kirkmaiden
Town: Drumore
County: Wigtownshire
Occupation: Field Lab Ag
ED: 8
Page: 26 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 75
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1851_215

Agnes Gunion 70
Robert Gunion 49
George Gunion 34
Isabella Gunion 35
Agnes Gunion 25
James Nelson 63


There is still just absolutely no sign of Peter Oliphant or his father James Oliphant.

Lookie -- in the IGI:


Peter Oliphant
Birth: 16 APR 1848 Dalry, Ayr, Scotland
Father: James Oliphant
Mother: Mary Hughes


Submitted record. Someone seems to have had some rather precise info, though.

Father is indeed James Oliphant -- but mother is not Isabella.


And again, a submitted record:

James Oliphant
Birth: 26 AUG 1811 Kilmaurs, Ayr, Scotland
Father: James Oliphant
Mother: Janet Steel
Spouse: Mary Hughes
Marriage: 25 MAY 1844 Dalry, , , Scotland


Matches perfectly with all the census info I was looking at.

And of course this submitted record:

Annie Oliphant
Birth: 1876 Dalry, Ayr, Scotland


Same info you have deduced from marriage and census. Looks like someone else somewhere has an interest in her, though.


From SP:

25/10/1848
OLIPHANT PETER
JAMES OLIPHANT / MARY HUGHES FR498
M
Dalry (Ayr) /AYR
587/ 0030 0150


I have 4 hours 16 minutes left to use my credits. ;)


The only death that is any kind of a match is:

1910
OLIPHANT PETER
M
59 = DOB approx 1850
MARYTON /ANGUS


The only one he looks like in the 1901 is the doppelganger one in Kincardineshire, born c1849 in Insch, Aberdeenshire:

3. PETER OLIPHANT - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 24 MAY 1846 Insch, Aberdeen, Scotland

who doesn't seem to have a recorded death otherwise.


Interesting marriage in the IGI:


MARY BOYD
Spouse: PETER BOYD
Marriage: 29 AUG 1872 Dalry, Ayr, Scotland
Batch No.: M115871


1872
BOYD PETER
BOYD MARY
DALRY /AYR 587/00 0053


Might be worth looking at that one. It's not unheard of for someone to compose a father, when marrying, out of bits of a real father, stepfather, mother's husband ...


They don't seem to be in the 1881 census. Only one in Ayrshire in 1871:

Name: Peter Boyd
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relationship: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Arran, Buteshire
Registration Number: 615
Registration district: Stevenston
Civil Parish: Stevenston
County: Ayrshire
Address: New Street
Occupation: Hous Joiner
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 51
Line: 23
Roll: CSSCT1871_115

Jane Boyd 52
Peter Boyd 20
Margaret Boyd 14 - niece


In 1881 the age is different (mistranscription?) but this seems to be the same person:

Jean Boyd 60
Peter Boyd 20 - nephew, joiner journeyman
William Boyd 9 - son of nephew, born Stevenston

1872
BOYD WILLIAM M
STEVENSTON /AYR
615/00 007


No Mary Boyd death in Stevenston, just this:

1880
BOYD MARY
(other surnames) WOODSIDE KERR
F
65
STEVENSTON /AYR
615/00 0131


Mary Oliphant deaths 1874-1901 in Ayrshire:

1887
OLIPHANT MARY
SPEIRS
F
65
KILMARNOCK /AYR
597/00 0218

1892
OLIPHANT MARY
FREW
F
56
LOUDOUN /AYR
603/00 0035

...

!!!!

How on earth have I/we managed to miss this???


1891 census

Name: Annie Oliphant
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relationship: Grand Daur (Granddaughter)
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire
Occupation: Dressmaker

Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
Town: Dalry
County: Ayrshire
Address: New Street

ED: 6
Household schedule number: 39
Line: 22
Roll: CSSCT1891_202

John Sloan 62
Martha Sloan 42
John Sloan 22
William Sloan 19
Thomas Sloan 15
Margaret Sloan 14
Archibald Sloan 9
Mary Sloan 7
Barbara Sloan 6
Alexander Sloan 4
Jessie Sloan 6 Mo
>>> Ann Boyd 80 - mother-in-law (of HOH, John Sloan)
Annie Oliphant 15


Name: Martha Sloan
[Martha Boyd]
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : John
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female


I think Annie, who follows Ann Boyd in the list, must be the granddaughter of Ann Boyd.

And I think we have your Annie.

How we didn't have her until now ... I'm flummoxed.

Grandmother Ann Boyd in 1891:

Name: Ann Boyd
Age: 80
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relationship: Mother-in-law
Where born: Kilwinning, Ayrshire
Civil Parish: Dalry


1881::

Name: Ann Oliphant
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relationship: Grandaughter (Granddaughter)
Father's Name: Jas
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire

Name: Jas Boyd
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Ann
Where born: Kilwinning, Ayrshire
Occupation: School Teacher, Disengared

Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
County: Ayrshire
Address: Stewarton Rd (Bellstone)
ED: 17
Household schedule number: 6
Line: 9
Roll: cssct1881_183

Ann Boyd 68 - head
Jas Boyd 49
Ann Oliphant 5


You would have to look at the original census page at SP to see whether young Ann is actually identified as daughter of James, or as granddaughter of Ann - or possibly of James.

And 1871:


Name: Mary Boyd
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relationship: Daughter
Mother's Name: Ann
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire
Occupation: Dress Maker

Name: Mathew Dall
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relationship: Grandson
Mother's Name: Mary
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire

Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
County: Ayrshire
Address: Bellstone
ED: 17
Household schedule number: 106
Line: 7
Roll: CSSCT1871_108

Ann Boyd 59
Mary Boyd 26
Mathew Dall 5


Looks like Mary had more than one child with more than one partner. ;)


I hope you are as pleased as I am triumphant about this!

Have a look at Google Maps and you'll see

Bellstone Cottages
Dalry, Ayrshire KA24, UK

You should be able to zoom in on satellite view to have a close look. I'm working on low-speed after my ISP fried my high-speed modem yesterday and is going to take its sweet time to get me another one, so I'm not going to attempt it. ;)

1881:

Name: Matthew Dale
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relationship: Boarder
Where born: Dalry, Ayrshire
Occupation: Painter

Registration Number: 587
Registration district: Dalry
Civil Parish: Dalry
Town: Dalry
County: Ayrshire
Address: New St
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 98
Line: 9
Roll: cssct1881_183

John Sloan 52
Martha Sloan 32
John Sloan 12
James Sloan 10
William U B Sloan 9
Annie G Sloan 7
Thomas Sloan 5
Margaret Sloan 4
Matthew Dale 15
Robert Stirrat 15


Living with the same Sloans as Annie Oliphant is living with in 1891.

Annie's half-brother!