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i'm looking for my grandfather John Powell who was born in Manchester around 1874. His father was James Powell. I've looked on the BMD Indexes and ended up buying several incorrect birth certificates ! John married Elizabeth Wright on 21 Mar 1901 and I've found them on the 1901 census in Salford. I don't know John's mother's name or whether he had any siblings. Please can anybody help ?

Do you have Johns marriage cert ?

This is one of the wrong 'uns?

Births Mar 1875
POWELL John Manchester 8d 308

1881 and 1891 do show no matching John.

One possibility is that his mother had been widowed and remarried (or separated and formed a new household with someone else) and John is hiding under his stepfather's surname. It's a common event, but one piece of data to use for matching is really needed, to search.

Re the marriage certficate, no sibling as witness, e.g.? What does it say his father's occupation was?

Merry Christmas and thanks for your suggestions. I do have John & Elizabeth's marriage certificate. They were married at Salford Register Office by certificate - am I right in thinking that this means they had to give 3 weeks notice ? Their witnesses don't appear to have a family connection but bearing in mind your comments about possible stepfather's surname I'll see if there's anything on the 1881 and 1891 censuses.

what was John's age on the marriage cert and what was his father's occupation.
Could the witnesses have been brother's in law or married sisters - you haven't give their names

Sue, if you'll answer those questions --

- names of witnesses on marriage certificate
- father's occupation on marriage certificate

(lancashireann and I have both asked them now)

-- someone might actually be able to help. We are all somewhat reluctant to set about searches without *all* the available information!

John in 1901, for ref:

Name: John Powell
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Spirit Merchant (I can't read the third word - All__man)
Civil Parish: Salford



Okay, something interesting.


In 1891:


Name: John Henry Powell
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James Anthony
Mother's Name: Isabel
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Great Grimsby
Town: Great Grimsby
County/Island: Lincolnshire

James Anthony Powell 36 - lodger, born Lambeth, occupation Circus Artiste
Isabel Powell 34 - wife, born New York, occupation Circus Artiste
Alfred Thos Powell 15 - born Bolton, occupation Circus Artiste
John Henry Powell 14
Mabel Frances Powell 11 - born Wolverhampton
James Anthony Powell 9 - born Denmark, Copenhagen


And matching births for the children:

Births Jun 1875
Hindley Alfred Thomas Bolton 8c 392

Births Mar 1880
Hindley Mabel Wolverhampton 6b 525

and for Johns without a conflicting middle name:

Births Sep 1873
Hindley John Manchester 8d 329

Births Sep 1876
HINDLEY John Manchester 8d 197


I would suspect that James Powell and Isabel Hindley married in Denmark (assuming they married), where son James Anthony Powell, named for his father, was born around 1880-81. I don't see a marriage in the GRO, and can't find any of them in the 1881. James and Isabel might well have met in Denmark.


There is one circus employee Powell in the 1881:

Name: Anthony Powell
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Liverpool
Occupation: Circus Horse Rider

Civil Parish: Derby St Peter
County/Island: Derbyshire


One might suspect a son or nephew of JA Powell Sr.

I'll bet this is JA Sr. in 1851:

Name: Anthony James Powell
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Valentine M - born France, c1836
Where born: Boston, Lincolnshire, England
Occupation: Equestrian (wife same)

Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: Surrey

No sign of them in 1861 or 1871. No death for Valentine in the GRO. James Anthony Powell undoubtedly spent considerable time out of the country.

Hindley would seem to be Isabel's married name, unless she had a series of children without marrying. With her being born in New York, that marriage might also have been outside England. Isabel doesn't seem to be in the 1871 census (under any surname). I also don't see Isabel and JA in the 1901, or Alfred Thomas or James Anthony Jr. or Mabel.


It looks kind of outlandish -- but when all else fails, outlandish may be what's left. And after all, circus artistes had to be *somebody's* ancestors!

Sorry about that. I'm not being deliberatley unhelpful, just new to message boards and didn't realise that people might help me search!
Info on marriage certificate as follows:
- witnesses George Ritson and Edith Homer or Cromer.
- father 's (James Powell) occupation was shown as 'moulders pattern maker'.
Hope this can help and thanks again.

Found the Hindley children in 1881.


Name: John Hindley
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England

Name: Alfred Hindley
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Southport

Name: Mabel Hindley
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Manchester

Civil Parish: Birkenhead
County/Island: Cheshire

Joseph Rosser 61 - boarding house keeper
Agnes M. Rosser 56
Frances Rosser 18
Josephine Rosser 16
Joseph A. Rosser 15
Alfred Hindley 5
John Hindley 4
Mabel Hindley 1
Richard Banton 64
Emma Banton 65
Mary E. Banton 37
Matilda Clements 54
Thomas Johnstone 24
Mary Ellen Johnstone 22


Certainly fits with the mother being in Denmark!

We crossed in the post. ;)

And of course none of my theory fits with a father who was a 'moulders pattern maker'!

This Edith fits with being the witness:


Name: Edith E Homer
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Alfred
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Name: Alfred Homer
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Edith E
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Occupation: [illegible] Public House

Civil Parish: Pendleton


Husband Alfred is someone that John Powell, a spirit merchant, could have come in contact with.

Oh, right -- she's Elizabeth's sister. ;)

Marriages Jun 1897
Dwyer Ann Salford 8d 257
> Homer Alfred Salford 8d 257
Lunt Walter Salford 8d 257
> Wright Edith Ellen Salford 8d 257

Could be how John and Elizabeth met, more likely.

Wow - but it's far more interesting ! Do you think it might be worth getting John Hindley's birth certificate yet, just to clarify or is there any other way ?

I was looking again at their marriage certificate and while I know ages can be 'fluid' John is shown as being 26 (on 21/03/1901) while on the census -10 days following , he is shown as 27 so he could possible have had a birthday during that period. Elizabeth, however, has told porkys about her age as she's 27 on the marriage certificate, 26 on the census and actually born in 1872 - making her 29.

'My' John is my paternal grandfather and my Dad was an only child and I never knew any extended family other than his Mum (Elizabeth) who died in 1953. Unfortunately my Mum never knew this John either as he died in 1929 before my Mum and Dad met, so she didn't have any info on the Powell family either. My parents had Edith Rowe as their bridesmaid who was my Dad's cousin on his Mum's side.

Don't know if this is any more help but I'm fascinated by the whole circus thing - can't say my quiet, shy Dad was an obvious candidate tho !

Gosh - I can't keep up !!

Yes, Edith Ellen was Elizabeth's step-sister.
John was a Spirit Merchants Cellarman (on marriage certificate) but I know that between 1910 and 1920 he was a beer retailer at 58, Rutland Street, Hulme (known as Queens Vaults).
So either way could have been a connection.

So Sue. I don't think the circus theory is new to you.

http://services.salford.gov.uk/forum/forumposts.asp?forum=22&id=82846

Posted by: suew on 05/10/2008 at 16:13
I'm looking for my paternal grandfather John Powell. He married Elizabeth Wright in March 1901 and I've found them on the census as living in Casson Street Salford, his occupation was Spirit Merchants Cellarman.
In 1910, when his son (another John) was born they were living in Rutland Street, Hulme and his occupation was a Beer Retailer. John died in 1929 in Tontine Street, Salford and even though I have both his death and marriage certificates I cannot trace any details of his birth.
On his marriage certificate his father James was deceased and I cannot find any details of his mother. Please can anybody help ?

Posted by: normah36 on 06/10/2008 at 01:26
Hello,
Have you looked at the 1891 census for Grimsby where James Anthony Powell and Isobell had a son John Henry born Manchester, there is a birth registered for a John Henry in Chorlton 1874 which matches the age of your John on 1901 census, James is listed as a circus performer and they had a child born in Denmark in 1881/2 so they do not appear on the 1881 census. A bit of a long shot but worth a look.
Norma

Posted by: suew on 06/10/2008 at 08:51
Hello Norma,
Thanks very much for your help. I've had a look at the Grimsby family and it's looking quite a strong contender but the John Henry registered in Chorlton in June 1874 doesn't look like this John Henry as his parents names were Jeremiah and Mary Augusta. I'm beginning to wonder if this was a travelling family (which it looks like from birthplaces of children), the children may not have been registered where they were born - which would be a nightmare. I intend going to see if there is anything in the local papers about the Circus being in town about that time and where they would be going next - I don't know if this is possible but I'll give it a go.
Sue


I guess I could have saved myself a lot of time if I'd googled

"James Anthony Powell" circus

as soon as I ran across that household ...

Anyhow, I suppose my tracking down the children and identifying them as born Hindley rather than Powell adds something to it. So yes, I'd order a certificate -- I would order Alfred or Mabel, since they are clearly identifiable, especially Alfred, and check whether Isabel is the mother, or James Powell is the father. Then pick a John and try.

John and Elizabeth both giving hokey ages makes sense - him to make himself not so much younger than her, her to make herself not so much older than him.

I've had no luck finding the other children marrying or in censuses under either surname after 1891.

Yes- I did know about the possible circus connection - I looked out of desperation ! However, other people that I asked locally didn't seem to give it any credence and as I couldn't find any other info under Powell I didn't go any further with it, but with your info on the Hindley name I'll certainly try to get Alfred's birth certificate and see what that gives me.

As far as John's job as a Beer Retailer I've contacted the brewery (JW Lees) for the location of any of their archives but they haven't got back to me. I presume there must have been some sort of licence but I don't really know where to look and whether it would give any other info - possibly dob ?

Hi there - I'm still looking. I know this is jumping the gun a bit but from your info I noticed that JA is shown on the 1851 census as Anthony James so I looked this up on the IGI and found the following

Anthony James Powell
bap. 31 Oct 1830 Boston, Lincolnshire
Father John Powell
Mother Jennet

Also looked for his marriageon Free BMD

Anthony Powell m Matilda Valentine de Bussiere on 7 Mar 1848 at Manchester Cathedral

haven't found any info on Isabel tho.

Fun!

Without the birth cert, you won't know what Isabel's surname was -- whether Hindley was her married surname, what her birth surname was, who her husband was -- so probably not much more you can do with her til then.

I always run into something I wish I'd remembered (if I do remember it) -- it strikes me that I encountered Bussiere or some version of it while searching around for Powells, but now I can't remember what it might have been. If anything. ;)

My ISP has been playing up so badly tonight I don't know whether I'll even be able to get this posted, so I won't try this:

www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

to look for more info about the various events, but you might want to try.

Gail,

The address I used for JW Lees was Greengate Brewery, Middleton Junction, M24 2AX - had I missed anything out ?
I would be really interested in info from John Rylands Library as I'm hoping to visit there in a few weeks - but I've no idea what they hold.
As far as the trade directories are concerned I have looked at Slaters and found John Powell from 1910 - 1920 at the Queens Vaults, Rutland Street then from 1922 - 1930 at Tontine Street where he's shown as a watch repairer and actually died there in 1929.
I was really thrilled to find information about him and his family there but I'd really love to take it further back and find info on his dob etc. EvieBeavie has come up with some really interesting stuff and I'm waiting for certificates to try to clarify things.
Suew

I'm still not convinced that the Hindley line is correct. Did I miss something or did that connection come purely from the Grimsby census family. I can't reconcile an iron foundry worker (pattern moulder) which was a common job in Salford with a circus connection. There are many James Powell's in the Salford / Manchester area.