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Hi,

I've just searched the 1891 census, and I cant find any real match for either Ellen or Hnry, and I've tried Younger, Edmonds, Edmunds, Edmund, Edmond.

There is a groom missing from this page, can anyone find him just in case its Mr Younger

Marriages Dec 1886
Edmonds Ellen Hackney 1b 672
HAWES Georgiana Hackney 1b 672
Martin William Arthur Hackney 1b

Otherwise would it be worth getting a birth certificate for one of her other Chapman children just to confirm all the details are the same (or otherwise?)

Selena

Selena,

I never though of that. I'll try and find some definate details on the others, although that has been proving tricky.

Chapman Elizabeth Camberwell 1d 932

This might be his sister. I will send off for this certificate.

I've checked the complete index for a marriage for a Mr. Younger in Dec. qtr. 1886 in Hackney but unfortunately there isn't one.

Kath. x

Thanks Kath for your hard work. It is a mystery as to what went on.

Selina, I have sent off for the other certificates that you have highlighted. So I will have to wait and see, hopefully they wont take as long as the last ones. Thank you again for your help.

Best wishes,

Sandra

Selena,

I have the certificates I ordered and there is a mixture of good and bad news.

I have confirmed that my grandfathers siblings Daniel, George John, and Elizabeth, all have the same mother Ellen Chapman, late Younger, formerly Edmonds! those exact words on each of the certificates.

As for her children from previous relationship the certificates don't show an Ellen. For Henry Edmunds, I have an Emily Edmunds formerly sherriff,
and the other one Henry Edmonds, I have a Louisa Edmonds, who was born in a workhouse infirmary. So I don't think either of those two, are the ones I'm looking for.

So i'm back to square one again :-)

This is the only think I can think of:

Births Mar 1889
Younger Eleanor Jessie Camberwell 1d 898

Births Mar 1886
YOUNGER Henry Arthur O Camberwell 1d 90*

The area ties in with place of birth, Peckham, for the 1901 census.

Thanks Selina. I have both of those birth certificates, and mother for Eleanor and Henry is Sarah Ann Younger formerly Bray. I have to say i'm stuck, and can't see how I can get around it. I have a couple of Ellen Edmonds that I could get the birth certificates for, but how will I know if they are the right ones? She gives her birth place as Peckham, on 1901 cencus, but none of the births I have state Peckham. I can't find her first marriage, I can't find her marriage to my great grandfather, I can't find the births of her first two children. Maybe I shoud try and find my great grandfathers death certificate, and see who the informant is? Would they have had informants at that time, do you know?

Thank you again for your help, just feel sad I might have to give this part of the search up.

Best wishes,

Sandra

Hello Sandra, this is driving me nuts!

I keep being drawn back to the Hackney marriage in 1886 with a missing groom - is it worth spending another seven pounds?

I'm posting this 1881 - she is a launderess but far too old to be yours.

Jas. YOUNGER Head ((Lodger)) M Male 48 St Pancras, Middlesex, England Painter & Decorator
Ellen YOUNGER Wife M Female 43 Edmonton, Middlesex, England Laundress
Ellen YOUNGER Daur Female 13 Lambeth, Surrey, England Domestic Servant Scullery
Alice YOUNGER Daur Female 10 Lambeth, Surrey, England Scholar
Francis YOUNGER Son Male 8 Lambeth, Surrey, England Scholar
Clara YOUNGER Daur Female 6 Lambeth, Surrey, England Scholar
Dwelling 35 Tilson Rd
Census Place Camberwell, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341162
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0697 / 106
Page Number 50

I would be very tempted to get the 1886 marriage certificate. I'll keep looking.

PS I have got a death certificate that I wasn't sure about as it was in the wrong area but the informant was the wife so it did help me confirm the death.

I looked under Helen and found this but it is very late - again there is a groom missing

Marriages Dec 1904
Burgess Alice Eliza Wandsworth 1d 1070
Edmunds Helen Wandsworth 1d 1070
Hayward James Wandsworth 1d 1070
McGrath Helen Wandsworth 1d 1070
Smith Frederick Wandsworth 1d 1070

and on this marriage there is a missing bride:

Marriages Jun 1892
CHAPMAN Frederick Hackney 1b 783
Smith David Hackney 1b 783
Ware Sarah Jane Hackney 1b 783

Selena,

It's just mad, I have spent so many hours over this, and got nowhere. I have now ordered both marriage certificates, so we shall see what that brings us. In the meantime, I will continue looking for my great grandfathers death.

Thanks for the information.

Sandra

Sandra, have you tried looking for Henry and Ellen Younger (the children) on this site to see if anyone has them in their tree?

There are a couple of possibilities I think.

Selena

I am adding this person as her age ties in with the 1891 census you have - I think you said she was 29 on the 1891.

Newington is in Southwark, near Walworth I think

Births Sep 1862
EDMONDS Eleanor Newington 1d 231

1881

Charles Wm. BARBER Head M Male 63 Barham, Kent, England (Tea Dealer Employing 3 Men & 2 Boy)
Ida BARBER Wife M Female 31 Sialesham, Sussex, England
Ida Frances BARBER Daur Female > 2 Greenwich, Kent, England
Annet Antonio FAVARD Assistant U Male 17 Abroad British Subject Grooms Assistant
Fanny DAVIS Servt U Female 22 Greenwich, Kent, England Cook Domestic Servant
Eleanor EDMONDS Servt U Female 18 Butts Newington Nurse Domestic Servant

Dwelling 68 Church Street
Census Place Greenwich, Kent, England
Family History Library Film 1341168
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0723 / 26
Page Number 1

Nothing to say its here but might be useful to keep on file.

Selena

Hi Selena,

I have emailed the people who have an Ellen and Henry in their tree, so we shall see what that brings. I haven't had time to look for a death for Ellen, but will do so when I get home from work tomorrow.

Sandra

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Chapman Ellen M 1 Shoreditch 1c 67


Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page


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Deaths Dec 1913 (>99%)
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Chapman Ellen 60 Brentford 3a 181


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Deaths Dec 1919 (76%)
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Chapman Ellen 57 Hampstead 1a 679

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Deaths Mar 1921 (91%)
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CHAPMAN Ellen 62 Poplar 1c 483

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Deaths Jun 1921 (97%)
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Chapman Ellen 75 St. Geo.H.Sq. 1a 442


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Deaths Dec 1921 (>99%)
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Chapman Ellen 65 Shoreditch 1c 135
Chapman Ellen L 45 Paddington 1a 101

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Deaths Dec 1922 (76%)
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Chapman Ellen J 62 Hendon 3a 313

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Deaths Jun 1924 (99%)
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Chapman Ellen E 79 Fulham 1a 278

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Deaths Jun 1928 (22%)
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Chapman Ellen 78 Brentford 3a 157

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Deaths Dec 1929 (88%)
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Chapman Ellen 70 Islington 1b 160

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

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Deaths Jun 1901 (>99%)
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Chapman Ellen 57 Poplar 1c 340


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Deaths Dec 1901 (>99%)
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Chapman Ellen 78 Bethnal G. 1c 147

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Deaths Dec 1902 (>99%)
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Chapman Ellen Patience 63 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 305


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Deaths Dec 1903 (>99%)
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Chapman Ellen 43 Hampstead 1a 403

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Deaths Sep 1905 (>99%)
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CHAPMAN Ellen 5[3_] Westminster 1a 300

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Deaths Jun 1907 (>99%)
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CHAPMAN Ellen 77 Edmonton 3a 224

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Deaths Sep 1908 (>99%)
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CHAPMAN Ellen 70 Shoreditch 1c 51

Hi,

Couldn't wait until tomorrow, so have done it now. I have gone from 1901 to 1950. No Ellen Chapman deaths at all reported for Camberwell. So have gone for Middlesex and London. I've taken out all the ones who are too young that I can see off hand, but will print off the list, and have a look when i'm off the computer. No deaths reported for an Ellen Chapman between 1940 and 50, and working on the principale she was in her forties in the 1901 census, I maybe able to narrow it down some more.

I really am off now, I have to be up early.

Have a good say,

Sandra

Perhaps she was a witness on one of her children's marriages - that might help with a time frame for her death.

Do you know if she is any family photos, christenings, wedding etc, again to help with approximate year of death.

Selena

Hi Selena,

I went through the deaths last night, and worked out what her age would have been on each year of death, and working on the assumption of the 1901 census that she was born in 1856, the only one that tallies is Chapman Ellen 65 Shoreditch 1c 135, so I am going to order that certificate, and hope it's the right one.

Sadly I have no photo's at all from my grandfathers/ great grandfathers side. My grandfather died when I was three and we had nothing to do with that side of the family. I do know that I have a lot of relations in the London area, but have never met or spoken to any of them. That's why I'm trying really hard to piece it together, because I would love to know as much as possible. All my grandparents had died by the time I was five, and I remember none of them. My mum was 42 when she had me, so I was a late addition.

The only marriage certificate I have is for my grandparents, and they married in 1922, it states that my great grandfather was deceased, and she wasn't a witness for that one.

I could prehaps try and find his death, and the others marriages and see if that helps. I have no idea who they married, or when they married, but it's worth a shot.

Something else that has me stumped is that my grandpa, who told my mum, and my brothers and sisters, that one of his brothers was killed during a war on the Voltaire, and that my uncle was named after him. I assumed it was Dan, however, I can find no record of that either. Either that was not true, which I'm not sure why my grandpa would lie about it, or someone has eaten those records too. We were also told that he was remembered on the war memorial in Plymouth, but not a trace.

Best wishes,

Sandra