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Dear Potty & Jim,

Daniell seems strange, but you never know. The only question mark I would raise on this is the fact that Charles Richard Williams (my grandfather) was the 3rd child and Mabel came after him.

I have the birth cert for my grandfather and it definitely states his name as Williams as well as his father - Arthur Denbigh Williams (c. 1872). Even on the 2nd marriage cert for Arthur Denbigh Williams, it states his fathers name as Arthur Denbigh Williams. I'm assuming my gr gr grandfather ADW was born approx. 1852 (20 yrs before his eldest son whom he named after him???? - although he might have had a row of 10 girls before him and have been born much earlier).

I also have the birth cert for the youngest daugher from ADW (c.1872) 1st marriage - Louisa Henrietta - again it clearly states Williams for her and her father.

However, I suppose it can do no harm to request one of the Daniell child birth certs - if the mothers name is Louisa Clark, then that would definitely mean that a name change happened at some stage. Something I have never considered.

I've traced a George Gerald Williams born in 1896 in Brentford and was about to request his birth cert too, to see if it adds up, might as well add another one to the list. I think I'll take George Edward Daniell.

Is there an Army site you know of where I can see if ADW was regular army at one point?

Thanks for your help and ideas - this has really got me stumped. Looking on the bright side, it is teaching me an awful lot about family research. I'm still a novice - just 1,5 yrs, so it's great for my learning curve.

Have a good weekend. Rebecca

On reading www.1914-1918.net/index.htm, I have a feeling that my gr grandfather Arthur Denbigh Williams was asked to sign up in the following "labour company". He founded a builders company called A. Williams & Son at 32 Cambridge Cottages, Kew. My father can remember that this existed. He is also stated to be a General Labourer on his enlistment papers. I will continue to read more info on the site and see if I can trace his unit which looks like either "391 lam." or "39/lam." whatever that may mean.

ASC Labour Companies
In France and Flanders, it was soon discovered that the local authorities could not supply men for labouring duties such as helping the BEF disembark it's stores and equipment from ships. The War Office sent 300 labourers for these duties. More followed, and by the end of December 1914 they had been formed into 5 Labour Companies of the ASC; each consisting of 6 officers and 530 other ranks. Numbers 1 and 2 Labour Companies were formed at Aldershot on 24-25 August 1914. A number of Foremen and Gangers were recruited in the early weeks, to act as NCOs. Approximately 21,000 skilled labourers and dock workers had joined by the end of 1915. However, the Companies were not destined to remain for long: 28 were absorbed into the newly-created Labour Corps between February and June 1917; 8 Companies were disbanded between January 1915 and June 1917, with personnel from 3 Companies being transferred to the Royal Marines.

1901
Arthur William 28
Arthur William 7 1st child
Charles William 2 4th child
George William 5 2nd child
Louisa William 31
Mabel William 3 3rd child

That's correct Jim - I have this 1901 census info already as quoted in my thread of yesterday at 18:50, that's why I was querying the name change. I don't think Daniell is the surname - should I request one fo the Daniell birth certs in your opinion anyway?

Edit 5 mins later!!
Okay - I think I see what you mean - Charles is the 4th child not the 3rd!!!!! Okay, so the name change could have happened after Mabel's birth. I'm on your wavelength now! I will definitely request the brith cert for George Daniell.

Keep us posted Rebecca!!

You and Jim will be the first I share the news with. It normally takes about 2 weeks for the certs to get to me from GRO as I live in Holland. Will be in touch.

Dear Jim & Potty,

I will send you a PM to inform you that I have added to the thread.

I have just received the birth cert for George Edward Daniell and can inform that it definitely looks like a name change - congratulations Jim!

Birth cert info:

Born: 30 Dec 1895
Name: George Edward
Father: Arthur Denby (another spelling!) Daniell
Mother: Louisa Daniell formerly Clark
Occupation father: Builders labourer
Address: 67 New Road, Brentford

Although the address is different to that of the birth cert of my grandfather, the mothers name is the same (apart from the Daniell instead of Williams) and also the same for the fathers name.

I have just requested the birth certs for father Arthur Denbigh Daniell 1873 and the other 2 elder (than my grandfather) children. Perhaps indeed as Mabel was born just 1 yr previously to my grandfather, the address might be the same.

In addition to the above, I have also received the death cert for Arthur Denbigh Williams who died in WW1. The info reads:

Army number: 3183
Rank: Pirvate 2
Name: Arthur Denbeigh (spelling!!) Williams
Age: 22 1/12 (repeat 12)
Country of birth: Brentford Middx
Date of death: 14 Feb 1915
Place of death: 10 Stat. Hosp, St. Omer
Cause of death: Disease

I believe that this is the Arthur Denbigh Daniell (Williams) born in 1893. Unfortunately the death cert does not give any info on the next of kin, but the name, age, place of birth seem to match.

I have now been trying to search again for a marriage registration for Arthur Denbigh Daniell b. 1873 and Louisa Clark b. 1871 but still to no avail. This is frustrating as I would like to be able to double check the name of Arthur's (b. 1873) father via his birth and marriage cert. Have you any tips as to better searches for marriages?

My sincere thanks for your help in getting me so far.

Best wishes,
Rebecca

Hi Rebecca
It is looking good.
I had one "brick wall" that took me three years and the sense of achievement is wonderful.
I have tried and failed to find anything else,for you.
You may find that the birth cert. for 1873 may not answer all your problems but at the very least it will give you his mother's name.
All the very best in your research.

Jim

Hi Rebecca

Thanks for letting us know. So, Jim was right and there had been a name change! But, still no marriage for Arthur and Louisa.

Have you managed to find either of them before 1901?

Keep us informed.

Potty

Dear Jim & Potty,

Many thanks. I'm hoping that his birth cert might lead me to some census material prior to 1901. I've not been able to trace him prior to 1901 yet.

Louisa Clark is also problematic prior to 1901 as it's not a unique name. I'm questioning whether they ever married as I have been unable to trace a Daniell/Clark or Williams/Clark union. He is stated as being a widower on his 2nd marriage cert, but I suppose he could have said anything.

I will be eager to learn his fathers name on his birth cert and I am questioning the statement on his 2nd marriage cert where he gives his fathers name also as Arthur Denbigh Williams (deceased house agent). I do not believe this could have been his fathers name if Arthur Denbigh b. 1873 started out life as a Daniell. Unless perhaps it was his father who decided to change his name approx. 1897 and he went along with it too????? Did "depol" (not sure how you spell this) exist in 1897? Would there be records of name changes back then?

What I'd also like to see if I can find is a registration of his company - A. Williams & Sons. I have been able to trace this using the British Phone Books. My father can vaguely remember that the builders business was later run by his fathers half brothers from the 2nd marriage. There was only business contact (selling of coal) between my grandfather (coal merchant) and gr grandfather (builder) and my grandfathers half brothers/sisters. My father believes that his grandfather (Arthur Denbigh b 1873) died approx. 1950 although he does not remember a funeral. I may have traced the death cert for Arthur Denbigh Williams - although the Denbigh is not mentioned in the reg. I will request it anyway on the off chance. I do know that AD moved from 32 Cambridge Cottages to 70 Mortlake Road, Richmond (probably just after WW2) - the Brit Phone Book verifies this as well as my fathers memory (my father also started working in his fathers coal business - when his father died in 1954 he continued for a few more years and then stopped working for the family business).

Well, I'll see what the 3 further birth certs bring up in addresses etc and I'll let you know. The mothers name of AD might help to trace more census material. Again, it will be about 2 weeks from yesterday until they reach me.

Many many thanks for all your help. I think it's amazing that you have been able to bring me this far.

Best wishes,
Rebecca

Dear Jim & Potty,

Update after receipt of 3x Daniell birth certs:

25 May 1873
Arthur Denbigh Daniell
Father: John Daniell - Traveller (brushes)
Mother: Henrietta Elizabeth Mary Daniell formerly Bacon
3 Harrison Street, Pancras

I have no clue if this is correct as Arthur Denbigh Williams (Daniell) stated that his father was named Arthur Denbigh Williams on his marriage cert to his 2nd wife. Still no joy in finding a marriage cert for him with Louisa Clark (his 1st wife).

30 Sep 1895
Arthur Denbigh Daniell
Father: Arthur Denbigh Daniell - Builders Labourer
Mother: Louisa Daniell formerly Clark
26 Pottery (difficult to read but found on map + close to other addresses) Road, Brentford

This looks correct as mothers name is definitely Louisa Clark.

16 Nov 1897
Mabel Florence Daniell
Father: Arthur Denby (spelling!) Daniell - Builders Labourer
Mother: Louisa Daniell formerly Clark
67 New Road, Brentford

This looks correct. Again mother's name is correct and address is the same as where George Edward Daniell was born.

So for sure we have the correct 3 siblings for my grandfather.

I have now tried to hunt for a marriage between John Daniell and Henrietta Elizabeth Mary Bacon and bingo - BMD ref: Mar 1870 Islington 1B 341. Double cross referenced on FreeBMD. It's the only one between a Daniell and Bacon that I could trace in the timespan required. So then I went on to census searches and found John and Henrietta together in 1871 at 89 Cirencester Street, Paddington (RG10 Piece 16 - Folio 53 - Pg 30). It seems that John was born in 1846 in Warminster, Wiltshire and Henrietta in 1847 in Jamaica (from earlier census info it looks as if her father was in the army and placed in Jamaica). Both John and Henrietta disappear after 1871!!!! I was so hoping to be able to find then together with a son named Arthur Denbigh to see if I could trace more of his siblings, but no joy yet. Could I be so bold as to ask for your help again to see if you can find an 1881 census with the family together?

The only fact that makes me believe that John Daniell might be the correct father to Arthur Denbigh is that he is mentioned as being a House Agent on the 1871 census. It could just be coincidence, but Arthur Denbigh Williams states that his father, whom he names as Arthur Denbigh Williams on his marriage cert to his 2nd wife, was a House Agent. I really need to confirm this with more census material on John Daniell after 1871. I'm hoping John remained a house agent till his death/pension.

Oh, one extra wonderful find was the death, however sad, of George Edward Williams (by then he was using the Williams surname) at the age of 22. I simply happened to google 32 Cambridge Cottages Kew in between " marks and there was just one single hit - it was a Roll of Honour - he died 17 Jul 1917 on the HMS Newmarket - his ship was torpedoed on 16 Jul 1917. The roll of honour mentioned his father's full name - Arthur Denbigh Williams with the 32 CC address - what a shot in the rose! He is commemorated on the Chatham Naval Memorial. I will visit it when I get a chance to go the UK again.

Okay, hopefully I have put all the additional facts gained in the past 2 weeks, since requesting the above mentioned births certs, together here in an understandable fashion.

Many thanks for any extra help you could give on tracing John Daniell and Henrietta Elizabeth Mary Bacon in an 1881/1891/1901 census.

Best wishes,
Rebecca

What do you think? another wife
1881 England Census
about Arthur D. Daniel
Name: Arthur D. Daniel
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Charlotte
Gender: Male
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Marys Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 96 Hornsey Rd
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Islington
Sub registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 67
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Susan Ash 66
Arthur D. Daniel 7
Charlotte Daniel 30
Florence G. Daniel 6
John Daniel 35
John W. Daniel 9

1891 England Census
about John Daniel
Name: John Daniel
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Charlotte
Gender: Male
Where born: Warminster, Wiltshire, England

Civil Parish: Battersea
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Battersea
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub registration district: East Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Albert Henry Daniel 8 <<<<<<<<
Charlotte Daniel 39
Ethel Marguerita Daniel 4 <<<<<<<<
John Daniel 45
Henry Gegg 22
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

1901 England Census
about Albert Daniel
Name: Albert Daniel
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Charlotte
Gender: Male
Where born: Pimlico

Civil Parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Dionis
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Fulham
Sub registration district: South Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 256
Household Members: Name Age
Albert Daniel 18
Charlotte Daniel 52 widow
Ethel M Daniel 14

death
Henrietta Elizabeth M Daniels abt 1847 1876 Oct-Nov-Dec Lambeth Greater London,

marriage
Charlotte Ash 1880 Apr-May-Jun Islington Greater London, London, Middlesex

John Daniell

Dear Jim,

Just read your thread additions. Will look at them all very closely soonest - I have a rather busy weekend. This really is turning into a saga. I will get back as soon as I have been able to absorb all info.

Many, many thanks for your great finds.

Best wishes,
Rebecca

Dear Jim,

I could not resist doing some searching and reading late tonight. Here follow my comments on your most recent census finds.

1881 - 96 Hornsey Road, Islington
It could indeed be a new wife after HEM Bacon dies in Lambeth in Q4 1876. I double checked your marriage find and confirm Jun 1880 Islington - 1B 310.

I searched for the birth of Florence G Daniel and John W Daniel and came up with the following:

Florence Gertrude Daniell - Holborn - Sep 1874 - 1B 697
John Montague Daniell - Pancras - Dec 1871 - 1B 77 (the W in the census transcription is wrong - looking at the original document I believe it is defintely M so the Montague could be correct)
Now I will have to do some hunting to see if I can find Florence G and John M in later census' - you never know Arthur D might have been visiting them or living near to them.

I have searched for the new wife Charlotte Ash (luckily the mother-in-law was in house in the census so the maiden name was at hand). I've traced her back as I wondered whether John Daniell might have changed professions from House Agent to News Agent/Stationery/Tobacconist because he had inherited Charlotte's father's business (Susan Ash was widowed). This doesn't seem to be the case. It looks as if Charlotte had this profession herself. Her father was a coach man and from the birth places of her siblings, it looks as if they moved around a lot.

1891 - 1 Battersea Park Road, Battersea
Certainly looks like the same family with Charlotte as the new wife. Her profession is tobacconist. John is now an accountant!! Maybe he did the books for her? Arthur Denbigh not at home. 2 new kids which I assume are John + Charlotte's new batch as they are born after the death of HEM Bacon.

1901 - 73 Parsons Green Lane, Fulham
Charlotte is a widow. Her profession is confectioner baker. Maybe she changed professions or the tobacconist started selling bread/cakes. I searched for the death of John Daniell and found Sep 1895 Fulham - 1A 186. They must have moved to Fulham between 1881 and 1901 census. I'm sure this is the right death as the place fits.

As an extra search and to find out more about HEM Bacon, I searched census material and have traced her back to 1851 aged 4 together with mother and father. Father - John Bacon was military - Ordnance Dept - seems to have been in Jamaica and was back in UK on leave of absence due to ill health in 1851.

I believe my best line of action now is to see if I can trace more census info on John Montague and Florence Gertrude to see where they ended up and what they did and hope that Arthur Denbigh was with them or near them.

Have you any other suggestions?

Many many thanks for all your help. FYI, I will most probably not be able to check for updates until Monday as I will not be home tomorrow.

Best wishes,
Rebecca

Read through your thread there are a lot of very interesting twists and turns
Have found a marriage for John Montague Daniell

John Montague Daniell 1897 Apr-May-Jun Fulham Greater London, London, Middlesex

Minnie Amelia Rooke 1897 Apr-May-Jun Fulham Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume 1a page 583

1901 census record for the couple
John Montague Daniel
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Minnie
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, London, England

Civil Parish: Ealing
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Ealing
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:given as Bogs hawker

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 213
Household Members: Name Age
John Montague Daniel 29
Minnie Daniel 30 Ealing Middlesex
Hope this is of some help

Dear Diane,

My sincere thanks for your find. I was just about to close down and glanced at the thread and saw your message. This is most helpful. I will look into this further on Monday. It's 2AM here in Holland so I must turn off the computer. I put the magnifying glass on his occupation and have made Boot Maker out of it - phew at least that's easier to picture.

Thanks to your help, I have been able to trace him now in 1891 as a lodger at 8 Connaught Road, Ealing. This is just 1.3 miles from 5 Venetia Road, Ealing where he is with his wife in 1901.

The 1891 census states he was born in Brixton. This is so confusing as my gr grandfather Arthur Denbigh Williams born Daniell on 25 May 1873 also stated he was born in Brixton on his Army Service Corp records that I have. According to Arthur Denbigh Daniell birth cert I have just received he was born in Pancras - subdistrict Grays Inn Lane. That's 4.5 miles away from Brixton on the google map and on the other side of the river Thames. Hmmmm..... they definitely are trying to confuse me!

1891 England Census
about John M Daniel
Name: John M Daniel
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Ealing
Ecclesiastical parish: St Johns
Town: Ealing
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: GIVEN AS SHOE MAKER!!!!!! This must be him!!!

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John M Daniel 23
Eliza Duncan 32
Gatley H Duncan 88
George A E Duncan 6
Lillian L Duncan 3/12
Rose A Duncan 5
William H Duncan 3

Once again many thanks - a super find.

Best wishes,
Rebecca