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This thread has been transfered from "findmypast look-ups". All who are able to contribute to it, please do.

We're really struggling to find a link between census records and birth refs for Jeffrey Joseph Meredith and his sister Frances. If you have the ability to see side-ways, please help.

If you read through the thread first, it will help to save time in the long run as it's quite convaluted.


Thanks.




Deb:)

Susan

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13th May 2008 06:56

Hi, debs can mrs tibbs find birth entry for jeffrey joe meredith, about 1882 he,s on 1901 census in royal navy,(northampton) born in croydon.married elsie lillian harvey 20-01-1923.witness is mameretta meredith.his father also jeffrey. & any other info would be great as my friend been searching for 2yrs,ive had a quick look but can only find death certs. thanks sue

Deb needs a change

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14th May 2008 01:45


Hi Susan,

I think I might be onto something but I need you to confirm Jeffrey's father's occupation on the marriage cert.

I don't think Jeffrey Joseph was born a Meredith.




Deb:)

Susan

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14th May 2008 10:23


Hi debs meredith marriage cert says he was a labourer,& there is adoption somewhere. thanks sue

Deb needs a change

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15th May 2008 11:10


Hi Susan,

OK. This is the birth I've found.


Name: Jeffrey Joseph Slack
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Croydon
County: Greater London, Kent, Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 229



Here he is with his parents James and Ellen visiting friends in Lewisham in 1891.


1891 England Census
about Joseph Slack
Name: Joseph Slack
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Friend
Gender: Male
Where born: Penge, London, England

Civil Parish: Lewisham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael and All Angels
Town: Sydenham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Emily Lawrence 13
Rose J Lawrence 8
John Leadon 56
Maria Leadon 49
Ellen Slack 56
Florence Slack 15
James Slack 45
Joseph Slack 7


I can't find any of this family in 1901. There's a few deaths for the parents after 1891 but nothing that even remotely fits Jeffrey.

You mentioned something about adoption. Could Jeffrey Joseph Slack have been adopted by the Merediths?

Before ordering the birth cert, post a request on records board to see if anyone else can find this family in 1901. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to search for mistranscriptions but that could be one reason why they disappear after 1891. I'd hate to think that you'd ordered the wrong cert because I'd overlooked something.

If this is your Jeffrey, then his father's name contradicts the info on Jeffrey's marriage cert, but I have a marriage cert that does the same, so it's not so uncommon.





Deb:)

Deb needs a change

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16th May 2008 03:06

Hi Susan,

Something about this Slack family has been bugging me all morning and I've had to have another look at them.

In the 1891 census, take a look at Ellen's age. If she was 56 when Jeffrey was 7, then she would have been 49 when he was born. There's no way she could have been his mother as she was well past child-bearing age by then.

We'd raise our eyebrows at a woman of 49 falling pregnant naturally today. It would have been pysically impossible back then!

I think that James and Ellen were Jeffrey's grandparents and that Jeffrey was the illegitimate son of one of their daughters. I'm going to go back through the earlier census records to see what this family was up to.


Back soon.




Deb:)




OK. This is intresting. They had a daughter, Cecilia who would have been old enough to be Jeffrey's mother.

P.S. Edward Aslett is Ellen's father.


1881 England Census
about James W. Slack
Name: James W. Slack
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Huntingdon, England

Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 2 Clifton Place
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Painter

Registration district: Kensington
Sub registration district: Brompton
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Aslett 79
Edward H. Higgs 22
Cecilia A. Slack 15 <<<<<<<
Ellen Slack 46
Florence E. Slack 5
James W. Slack 36



1871 England Census
about James Sloch
Name: James Sloch (mistranscribed)
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Huntingdonshire, England
Civil Parish: St George The Martyr Southwark
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 177
Household Members: Name Age
Cecilia Sloch 5
Edward Sloch 12
Ellen Sloch 30
James Sloch 27


Cecilia's birth:


Name: Cecilia A Slack
Year of Registration: 1866
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Chelsea (1841-1981)
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 223



Cecilia didn't marry until 1905. I can't see her in 1891 or 1901. I wonder what she was doing?


Name: Cecilia Ann Slack
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Lewisham
County: Greater London, Kent, London
Volume: 1d
Page: 1984





I'm going to have to leave this here, but I'll contact Mrs Tibs and see if she can find anything more on this family over the weekend.




Deb:)

Susan

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17th May 2008 07:39


Hi debs & mrs tibs, thanks for slack&meredith info, the 2 sisters im helping are away together this weekend so ive given them a bit of info to start them off. there a bit gutted as they been trying for 3 yrs,& with your help we done it in a week, hope you mannage to solve it. cheers sue

MrsTibbetts

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18th May 2008 20:00


Sue

Cecilia may have been pretending to be married - I found this entry in 1891:

1891 England Census
about Cecilia Cockman
Name: Cecilia Cockman
[Cecilia Cohman]
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Samues R
Gender: Female
Where born: Chelsea, London, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Johns
Town: Peckham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 10 Denmark Villa

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub registration district: Camberwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age

Samues R Cockman 37 Salesman b. Blackheath, Kent (I think his age is more like 31 - compared to the enumerators other 7's and 1's)
Cecilia Cockman 25 b. Chelsea
Florence E Cockman 5 b. Walworth
Samuel R Cockman 3 b. Bow
Albert E Cockman 6months b. Dulwich

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 468; Folio 52; Page 35; GSU roll: 6095578.

I'm not sure about the alternative name given on Ancestry - as the image is Cockman.

Found Samuel's death:

Deaths Jun 1893
Cockman Samuel Robert 35 Epsom 2a 3

As a salesman he may have travelled around a bit and died away from home.

He may have been married to someone else prior to him and Cecilia getting together:

Marriages Mar 1877
Banbury Eliza Susannah P Camberwell 1d 687
COCKMAN Samuel Roberts Camberwell 1d 687
Peakall William Camberwell 1d 687
ROGERS Elizabeth Annie Camberwell 1d 687

Here is Cecilia's christening - a bit after her birth:

CECILIA ANN SLACK
Christening: 24 OCT 1869 Holy Trinity, Newington, Surrey, England
Father: JAMES WHEATLEY SLACK
Mother: ELLEN

Cecilia & Samuel's children:

Births Mar 1886
COCKMAN Florence Ellen St Saviour Southwark 1d 153

Haven't found one yet for Samuel!

Births Dec 1890
Cockman Albert Edward Camberwell 1d 743

Deaths Jun 1893
Cockman Albert Edward 2 Camberwell 1d 471

A possible child (Cecilia may have been pregnant when Samuel died?)

Births Mar 1894
Cockman Cecilia Agnes Camberwell 1d 888

Deaths Sep 1895
Cockman Cecilia Agnes 1 Camberwell 1d 491

Possible marriage for Florence - although looks like James Brightman married Louisa Spencer and the only likely looking 1901 entry for Walter Ruffle with a wife Florence has Florence aged 30 which doesn't fit.

Marriages Dec 1899
Brightman James William Greenwich 1d 1722
Cockman Florence Ellen Greenwich 1d 1722
Ruffle Walter Greenwich 1d 1722
Spencer Louisa Greenwich 1d 1722

1901 England Census
about Cecilia Woof
Name: Cecilia Woof
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John J
Gender: Female
Where born: Chelsea, London, England

Civil Parish: Lewisham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Angels, Christchurch, and St Michael
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 34 Miall Road

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 145
Household Members: Name Age

John J Woof 48 Cornhandlers? Sundryman b. Spitalfields
Cecilia Woof 35 b. Chelsea
Fredk Woof 13 b. Peckham
Samuel Cockman 13 b. Stepney (Stepson)
Beatrice Woof 3 b. Peckham
Rachael Jones 80 (single - Cousin) Living on Own Means b. St Georges in the East

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 556; Folio: 42; Page: 24.

Should be Woolf but is Woof on the image.

Again she and John were not officially married at that time.

Births Sep 1897
COCKMAN Beatrice M W Camberwell 1d 984

The marriage in 1905 ties it all up:

Marriages Dec 1905
SLACK Cecilia Ann Lewisham 1d 1984
WOOLF Jacob Jonas Lewisham 1d 1984

Here is Jacob/John in 1891:

1891 England Census
about John Jonas Woolf
Name: John Jonas Woolf
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Charlotte
Gender: Male
Where born: Spitalfields, London, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
Town: Peckham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 1 Haymerle? Road

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age

John Jonas Woolf 38 Manufactuer of Oilcans? Sundries (tins) b. Spitalfields
Charlotte Woolf 37 b. Westminster
Catherine Woolf 9 Scholar b. Camberwell
Frederick Woolf 4 b. Camberwell

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 480; Folio 126; Page 30; GSU roll: 6095590.

As for the Meredith's pretty stuck - no Jeffrey Meredith's at all. You gave the name Mameretta - is this right?

MrsTibbetts

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18th May 2008 21:20


1901 England Census
about James Slack
Name: James Slack
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Ellington, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Lewisham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Angels, Christchurch, and St Michael
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 4 Miall Road

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 120
Household Members: Name Age

James Slack 54 House Painter b. Ellington, Hampshire
Ellen Slack 65 b. Paddington
George Dight 21 Transformer Attendant (Electrical Supply) (son in law) b. St. James
Florence Dight 25 b. Southwark
Florence Dight 1 b.Lewisham

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 556; Folio: 40; Page: 20.

Births Jun 1876
Slack Florence Ellen St. Saviour 1d 33

Marriages Mar 1899
Dight George William Greenwich 1d 1123
Slack Florence Ellen Greenwich 1d 1123

Births Dec 1899
Dight Florence Ellen Lewisham 1d 1196

I think this is one of their children - using Florence's father's middle name:

Births Sep 1906
Dight George Wheatley Lambeth 1d 393

Deaths Dec 1906
DIGHT George Wheatley 0 Lambeth 1d 223


If you go to www.nationalarchives.gov.uk you can download a copy of Jeffery Joseph Slack's Seaman's record for £3.50.

Just go to documents online and fill in the search form.

You should find this entry:

Description Name Slack, Jeffrey Joseph
Official Number: 212548
Place of Birth: Penge, Surrey

Date 28 December 1884
Catalogue reference ADM 188/372
Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
Series Admiralty: Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Piece 212501-213000
Image contains 1 document of many for this catalogue reference

Marriages Sep 1865
Higgs Ellen Chelsea 1a 441
Slack James Wheatley Chelsea 1a 441

Births Jun 1845
SLACK James Wheatly Huntingdon 14 202

Deaths Mar 1915
Slack James W 69 Lewisham 1d 1652

However I have come across this:

Marriages Sep 1927
Slack Jeffrey J Wren Lewisham 1d 2600

The corresponding spouse is not on freebmd but a check on Ancestry gives her name as Edith E.

I think that for some reason he went by the name Meredith - however his Seaman's record reflects his birth name - the place of birth as Penge is all too much of a coincidence.

Perhaps Elsie died and Jeffrey reverted to his birth name and married again or they divorced. I've not found a death so far for an Elsie L Meredith.

Do you know if your Jeffery James - son of Jeffery and Elsie had any siblings? Do you have a death for Jeffrey Joseph Meredith?

There is a possible re-marriage for Elsie -

Marriages Jun 1927
Hamper Nathan Meredith Newhaven 2b 463
MEREDITH Elsie L Hamper Newhaven 2b 463

MrsTibbetts

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18th May 2008 21:24


A search on Genes Reunited brings up two people who have Jeffrey Meredith b. 1923 Chertsey on their tree - Jeffrey and Daniel. Jeffrey I think is Jeffrey James's son - born 1959 in Chertsey.

Might be worth sending them a message if you haven't already.

Deb needs a change

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18th May 2008 23:06


Brilliant work Mrs Tibs!

I had a sneaking suspicion that Cecilia was living defacto during those missing years. Didn't know it was with two different men though.

It's really looking like Jefferey Joseph switched back and forth from Slack to Meredith. I think he may have made up his father's name on his marriage cert. I'd be really curious to find out what the Slack birth cert reveals. I hope Sue buys it.




Deb:)

Susan

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19th May 2008 21:20


Hi mrs tibbs & debs, the 2 merediths on genes are the daughters of jeffreyjames meredith his birth cert arriving soon,mannereta meredith was found on 1891 census c1875 pob byfleet was a servant for hadleys. she was sister of jeffrey joseph meredith, & was witness on marriage cert. he married elsie lillian harvey.on cert says his father jeffrey deceased. looks dodgey family to me!! did find death records for the 1st 2 jeffreys, we will go for slack cert. sue

MrsTibbetts

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19th May 2008 22:47


Now this could be a long shot as Mannareta Meredith only appears on the one census - I've tried all sorts of searches to find her - no births for children with that kind of name in the district that covers Byfleet (Chertsey) - I did however come across this - and I cannot find the likely child on the censuses either -

Births Mar 1877
Meredith May Meretta Thame 3a 649

Any idea when Mannareta Meredith died? Did she ever marry? You said that the people on GR who had Jeffrey b. 1923 on their tree were his daughter's - just curious as both names are men - Jeffrey and Daniel.

Did Jeffrey b. 1923 have any siblings? What are the death details for both Jeffrey's?

Susan

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20th May 2008 07:50


Hi, mrs tibbs, mannereta was known as may! jeffrey 15-12-1923 was registered 1st quart 1924 mother maiden name harvey. he had 3 sibs nina & di who are the ones were helping & a son who committed suicide due to family lies on other side of family. j 1923 died aug 1986. father died 28-1-1938. the mother of 2 girls alive but they dont trust what she says. manneretta never married but did have an affair with an irishman!! the genes people are nina & her son daniel.bot they used jeffrey name. im trying to help on this too. good luck. sue

MrsTibbetts

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21st May 2008 20:43


Sue - when i asked if Jeffrey James Meredith (b. 1923) had any siblings - you told me about his children, but not about any possible siblings. Do you know if he had any brothers & sisters? We know he had this aunt Mannereta - but were there any other Meredith relations too?

Kind of hard at this one as its such a mystery - but I have a raging cold so not been about much!!

Susan

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22nd May 2008 07:47


Hi mrs tibbs, sorry jeffrey was an only child.hope you feeling better. sue

Susan

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24th May 2008 11:50


hi mrs tibbs & debs, ive found this for you to have a look at! 1891 census jeffries moredith 1887 & francis meredith 1890. sue

MrsTibbetts

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24th May 2008 19:30


Sue - very interesting!

No sign of any births for Frances Meredith in that area (as it should be Frances not Francis as its a girl)

Ancestry has got them down as the grandchildren of James Hardly - however a. it is Hardy not Hardly, and b. they are marked as a separate household. They are the grandchildren of a Jane Weston aged 70 - married but no husband with her. She was born in Liverpool. Searches for her are turning up nothing, also searching for Frances in 1901 is also not turning up anything either.

Deb needs a change

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Yesterday at 08:48


Hi Susan,

WESTON, Jane Wife Widow F 70 1821
Liverpool
MERIDITH, Jeffries Grandson M 4 1887
Croydon
Surrey
MERIDITH, Francis Granddaughter F 1 1890
Chertsey
Surrey

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG12 Piece:
553 Folio:
93 Page:
2

Registration District:
Chertsey Sub District:
Chertsey EnumerationDistrict:
14 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Byfleet

Civil Parish:
Byfleet Municipal Borough:
Address:
Petersham Place, Byfleet County:
Surrey



I've had another look back through births and I can't find a ref for this Jeffrey or his sister Frances. If this is your Jeffrey, then in 1901 his actual age was 14 which would have been too young to join the navy. If he was a big lad, he could have gotten away with the lie though.


1901 England Census
about Jeffrey Joe Meredith
Name: Jeffrey Joe Meredith
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Crew
Gender: Male
Where born: Croydon, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Royal Navy
Town: Portsmouth Harbour
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Portsmouth
Sub registration district: Portsea and Landport
ED, institution, or vessel: Northampton



We could be looking at 2 seperate Jeffreys as we have J J Slack in 1891 also. Hopefully, Mrs Tibs can find a military record under the surname Meredith.

My records don't show anything but then FMP are dreadfully sketchy.



Another question: have you found J J Meredith's death yet? How old was he when he died?




Deb:)

MrsTibbetts

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Yesterday at 11:46


Deb & Sue

Re Meredith.

It is a puzzle indeed. I did find a Seaman's record for Jeffrey Joseph Slack on the National Archives website - Sue did you get to download it? It might give a little more info. It certainly gives his birth date and place of birth - which corresponds with the birth ref we found in Croydon for JJ Slack. As in 1901 we cannot find JJ Slack but we do have JJ Meredith in the Navy. His Seaman's record should have info on where joined, where he was posted etc - so it might be worth checking to see if it tallies with the 1901 census info with where JJ Meredith was based.

It could be that JJ Slack and JJ Meredith are one and the same person. I do not believe it is coincidence that with a name like Jeffrey Joseph, that the only record coming up is for this Slack surname and that the naval record is under the name Slack - yet he gives his name as Meredith in 1901. It could be that his father was a Meredith and he was told this, or had some contact with his father or his father's family, so while he was born a Slack, he may have felt he wanted to use the name Meredith. He also may have been a bit of a tinker and enjoyed being able to use both surnames - and perhaps commited bigamy by marrying under both names - to Elsie Harvey as Meredith and to Edith Wren as Slack. The only child seems to have been JJ Meredith b. 1923. I cannot find any Slack/Wren children.

I think this family went out of their way to be convoluted - it may be that JJ Slack/Meredith is enumerated twice in 1891 under both names - once by his mother's family - with grandparents James and Ellen (if his mother was indeed Cecilia) and then once by his father's family - if say his father had been married before and his wife's mother was this Jane Weston - or that was Mr. Meredith's mother who had remarried at some point.

I think it may be that Mannereta Meredith is a half sister - being a fair bit older than him - perhaps that birth reg in Thame for May Meretta Meredith is her, and that her father was married at that time. Then he took up with Cecilia Slack and had a couple of children - JJ and Frances - but when she met Samuel Cockman - he didn't want her other children with them, and then she ended up with another man after he died and by then it was too late to have her children back.

I wouldn't be surprised if Frances is registered under another surname - perhaps she is not a Slack - and maybe Mr. Meredith had it away with someone else and a similar situation occured with poor Frances.

The death reg for JJ Meredith senior does corroborate the birth reg in 1884 for JJ Slack. The thing now is to look for a death of Mannereta Meredith to see if we can tie her back to that birth reg in 1877 in Thame.

I think it would be very interesting to see the details from JJ Slack's birth cert in 1884, and also the marriage cert for JJ Slack & Edith Wren from 1927. I think it is also worth looking to see if a death can be found for JJ Slack. If not - then I think it may well be proved that JJ Slack and JJ Meredith are one and the same.

I think it all hints at funny goings on when JJ Meredith junior's wife wont say much about the family, I know many older people will hold onto their family secrets - things that most of us these days wouldn't bat an eyelid to, but they find fearfully shameful.

At the moment Ancestry only has Naval Casualties so I'm not able to find out anything more than the record found on the National Archives - I strongly recommend that you download that - it is only £3.50.

I also think that the birth cert and marriage cert of JJ Slack 1884 & 1927 would be very worth getting too. I will continue to look on the death indexes for deaths for JJ Slack and for Mannereta Meredith.

I am at a loss as to what to suggest for Frances - she seems to be very much a non person what with no birth reg at the mo and disappearing from the 1901 census.

I think the 1911 census will answer a lot of questions - so it will be a anxious wait for that!

In the meantime - talk to any relatives that are still around - I know some will have already been spoken to - but I find that I get new info out of my parents everytime I talk to them - so its always worth asking again!