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Gill, I've just been re-reading the thread & I got the impression you thought Harriet was a widow in 1891. I think there are 2 Harriet Snoads. One in London & one in Kent. Francis, the baker, is always living around London & I think this is Harriet's death.

Harriet Snoad abt 1822 [birth date] 1872 [death date] Jan-Feb-Mar Lambeth Greater London, London, Surrey.

That marriage you had for a Mary Ann Snoad in West Ashford, I think is connected to the Kent family. Though as Francis is shown as born in Canterbury in most of the censuses they could be closely related [cousins?]

Ozi.

BTW - do you realize that Minnie Snoad c1856 is actually Harriet Minnie?

Now Gill, I think there's a bit of surname-ism creeping in here. What's wrong with Piddle, er ... sorry, Piddell?

We know that the very distinctive Charles W R Stagg was married to an Ellen Maria not a Mary Ann, and Ellen Stagg & children were living with a Sarah Piddell in 1871.

Also there's this in the Strand reg'n district in 1861:
James Matthews Mary A abt 1827 Reading, Berkshire, England Head Westminster St Clement Danes, Middlesex

Not that it proves anything.

It would be understandable that you don't have any connections to Piddells as you didn't know about Francis's marriage to Ellen & it doesn't look as if they had any children.

David - thanks for that. I did a very similar search but with an age range of 10+/-. I must've missed it.

Ozi.

Ozibird
???
Marriages Mar 1858
Matthews James Strand 1b 407
Piddell Ellen Maria Strand 1b 407
Stagg Charles White Robertson Strand 1b 407
Wisdom Mary Ann Clerkenwell 1b 407

I know it sounds odd - but
is it at all possible that Ellen Piddell married James Matthews???

as I do have a Matthews connection in my tree????
Gill

Hi Guys

Only just picked up your replies on my thread -
thank you so much for all your hard work - really appreciate it.
I will work through & digest - & will come back to you a little later .
Thanks again
Gill

Ozi,

In case you read this, Francis Snoad was listed on the Ancestry.co.uk 1891 census index as Snoa D (space and capital D - dunno why). I searched on Franc* Sno* with the dob +or- 5 years, and that got him.

David.

1901 England Census
Name: Henry Stagg
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Civil Parish: St Andrew Holborn Above The Bars and St George The Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist Red Lion Square
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 28[??] Red Lion Sq
Occupation: Ship's steward

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Holborn

[I haven't put in the household as it's huge.]

Perhaps he's at sea in 1891 as I can't find him.

Where did Charles & Henry/Hubert go? Can't find Henry.

1881 England Census
Name: Chas. Stagg
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 64 Margaret St
Occupation: Tailors Cutter

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Amwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Batten 52
Sarah Batten 54
George Batten 18
S. Buckingham 22
Fredk. Newton 34
E. Robinson 20
Chas. Stagg 21




1891 England Census
Name: Chares Stagg
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Edith
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, London, England

Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 5 St James Walk
Occupation: Mantle Cutter

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: St James Clerkenwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Chares Stagg 31
Edith Stagg 22
Harriet E Blest 59 - lodger
Elizabeth Juden 36 - lodger
Ann Sadler 76 - lodger
Annie White 64 - lodger



1901 England Census
Name: Charles Stagg
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Son-in-law
Spouse's Name: Edith
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 2 Pentonville Cottages, Market Street
Occupation: tailors cutter

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Lower Holloway
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 121
Household Members: Name Age
John Lemmis 58 - prison officer
Charles Stagg 41
Edith Stagg 32


Marriages Mar 1887
BEBEE Arthur Holborn 1b 717
...>>>LUNNISS Edith Holborn 1b 717
Packham Charlotte Holborn 1b 717
...>>>STAGG Charles Englebert Holborn 1b 717

Gillian, just read your last message. You say Charles is from Durham & you have no connection with there, but then you didn't know about Ellen either.

Good work from David to find him in 1891. I wonder why that didn't come up in my search?

Ozi.

And here's Francis in the 1891 census:


1891 England Census - about Francis I Snoad
Name: Francis I Snoad
[aka John Snoad - a qualification against this entry also says " presumed widower of Harriet. He was marked as deaf in 1871 - a baker"]
Age: 68
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Canterbury, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: The Holy Redeemer
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 107 Rosomand Street
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage: widowed
Education:
Employment status:

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Amwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 4

Household Members:
Name Age
Clara Andrews 35
Nathaniel Andrews 41
Francis I Snoad 68

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 224; Folio 137; Page 9; GSU roll: 6095334.

No sign of Hubert!

David

This looks like it could be Francis Snoad's death - age is about right:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about Francis Snoad
Name: Francis Snoad
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 78
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 89

David

It does sound like it COULD be him , but the age is way out & it says he was born in Durham - I dont have that connection at all (?)

Perhaps Charles left Ellen.

Marriages Mar 1867
Chapman James St. Olave 1d 40
Sparrow Martha Maria St. Olave 1d 40
...>>>Stagg Charles White St. Olave 1d 40
...>>>Wright Lydia St. Olave 1d 40


If this is him, he's lying about his age but look at his occupation.
1881 England Census
Name: Charles Stagg
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Lydia
Gender: Male
Where born: Middleton, Durham, England

Civil Parish: Freshwater
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England

Street address: 12 Victoria Road
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Civil Engineer & Land Surveyor

Registration district: Isle Of Wight
Sub-registration district: Calbourne
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Stagg 46
Lydia Stagg 37 - laundress; Bermondsy, Middlesex


Deaths Sep 1884
Stagg Charles White 62 I Wight 2b 391

Oooop's ...sorry, missed the last bit
Deaths Jun 1887
Snoad Ellen Maria 49 London C 1c 20

So, I am still looking for Francis Snoad & Hubert in 1891.
AND
Ellens first husband Charles in 1871/1881 etc(?)
OR his death.
Not forgetting their children Charles & Henry.....where did they go?

I love a puzzle.....Thanks again
Gill

I found Ellen's death, check at the bottom of my last message.

So .....the plot thickens - It would appear that Ellen Piddell first married Charles, White, Robertson, Stagg in 1858 - he is 15 years older than her! - They have a son in 1860, also called Charles. Then another son , Henry in 1865.

In 1871 census - Ellens husband Charles is not with them ( he may have died or left her?)

Would be interesting to see if we can find him in 1871/1881 etc(?)

In 1875 she marrys Francis Snoad - BUT, in the 1881 census they are showing a son living with them - Hubert aged 17 - that would make his birth
c 1864 (?)

I also need to find Francis Snoad, Ellen & their son Hubert in the 1891 census.

All ideas welcome
thanks again for your help
Gill

???
Marriages Mar 1858
Matthews James Strand 1b 407
Piddell Ellen Maria Strand 1b 407
Stagg Charles White Robertson Strand 1b 407
Wisdom Mary Ann Clerkenwell 1b 407


???
Births Sep 1865
Staggs Henry Marylebone 1a 508



1861 England Census
Name: Ellen Maria Stagg
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles W R
Gender: Female
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address: 181 Great Dover St

Occupation:

Registration district: Newington
Sub-registration district: Trinity Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 76
Household Members: Name Age
Charles W R Stagg 37 - engineering surveyor
Ellen Maria Stagg 22
Charles R Stagg 1


1871 England Census
Name: Ellen Stagg
[Ellen Piddsel]
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: St James Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 48 St Helena Pl

Occupation: Envelope maker

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Amwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 417
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Piddsel 74 [Piddell on image, but is a bit faint.]
Ellen Stagg 32
Charles Stagg 11 - Southwark
Henry Stagg 6 - Marylebone


Deaths Jun 1887
Snoad Ellen Maria 49 London C 1c 20

wow - hadnt thought of a second marriage for Francis - I thought he must have died prior to the 1891 census as Harriet was a 'widow' then.

Is it pos please for someone to find in the 1891 census:

Francis Snoad, Ellen & their son Hubert - to see where they are & what they are doing & to try to confirm if this is the same Francis Snoad that was once married to Harriet???

Many thanks

1881 have you thought of a second marriage

Name: Francis J. Snoad
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen M.
Gender: Male
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 48 Margaret St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Baker

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Amwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen M. Snoad 42 Brighton
Francis J. Snoad 58
Hubert H. Snoad 17


Name: Francis John Snoad
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Holborn
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 1113

Possible bride is Ellen Maria Piddell
So Hubert could be her son

Hi Gill,
To answer questions in your last two messages (in order):

The 1841 census provides less information than later census, it doesn't show relationship to head, and it only says whether or not the person was born in the same county as they are currently living in. So Thomas and Mary were not born in Middlesex, all the children (inc baby Mary) were. So we can't tell from the census who baby Mary's parents were. In terms of the "born in same county" entry I have found these quite unreliable in my research!

On the birth index, I have given you all of the information that's available without buying the actual certificate. Later indexes (starting sometime in 1900's) do show the mothers maiden name, but not the early ones unfortunately.

In looking at the 1841 census again I have noticed that there are 4 Mary Wakefields b1841 listed:

Mary Wakefield abt 1841 in Kent, England, living in Ulcombe, Kent
Mary Wakefield abt 1841 in Middlesex, England, living in Norton Folgate Liberty, Middlesex
Mary Ann Wakefield abt 1841 in Lancashire, England, living in Childwall, Lancashire
Mary Ann Wakefield abt 1841 in Yorkshire, England, living in Selby, Yorkshire.

The birth index I found (see earlier message) for Mary could relate to the one born and living in Lancashire. Difficult to tell with the information I've found.

I've sent you a direct message on GR.

David

Hi David - I think our postings 'cross'!

Mary's birth registration - does it give mother & fathers name please?

Trying ti confirm whether she is Harriets daughter - or sister.
GIll