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Lets start from the beginning..

I have my Gt Grandmothers birth cert stating Mary Joynes born 1st July 1890, Willenhall, Staffs. Her father is Edward Joynes and Mother Harriet Joynes formerly Cooper. This much I know is exactly right.

I have tried to trace the marriage of Harriet & Edward and couldn't find one, however I have found a Harriet Cooper marrying an Edward Giles in 1882, which would be about the right year. I thought that maybe with a hard hearing vicar and a very strong Birmingham accent Joynes could easily be misconstrued as Giles.

Edward was born 1860 in Willenhall, Staffs and Harriet 1858 Willenhall, Staffs.

I have the marriage cert, and it states Edward Giles father as Henry again this matches with what I know about Edward and the occupation for both father and son are correct, just the surname is a bit dicky.

What confuses matters even further is that on the in the 1891 (still Willenhall) census Harriet & Edward are married and have a sister in law Elizabeth Bates living with them. Tracing backwards I found what I thought was Harriet with her mother Jemima (or Jessica) living with an Abraham Bates who she married in 1864, (6 years after Harriet was born). So far so good....... Harriets mother appeared to be Jemima Cooper nee Morgan and her father George Cooper who died when Harriet was only 2, hence the remarriage.

HOWEVER, the damn marriage cert of Edward (Giles) and Harriet states her father as Edward Cooper!.

I can't find a Harriet Cooper of the right age in the census reports with a father Edward, though I can find IGI records in the right area with either a Sophie or Jane as mothers.

The Great and Good of GR what do you think, have I got the wrong marriage cert?, or with Harriet's father dying when she was only two, could she have got it wrong? or have I gone barking mad?

Just for the record I have searched for an Edward Giles with a father Henry living in Willenhall, Staffs and can't find that one either, so I am inclined to believe that a mistranscription has occured.

This search is sending me round the twist, could anyone help, sorry its a bit long winded, but as you can see, it takes a bit of explaining!

Many thanks to anyone you can offer advice, or recommend a good shrink?.

Cheryl

I recommend Gin Cheryl - but before I start on that I'll have a look for you!

When and where was Harriet born?

Lindylu
Gin makes me terribly depressed, and I am barking as it is with this search, might try Whisky instead. I definately need something strong.
Thanks for looking for me, I warn you though, it will probably drive you to drink too!
Cheryl

Lindylu
I believe Harriet was born in 1858 Willenhall, well that's what the census reports say and this matches with her death in 1922.
Cheryl

Well, this has me stumped I must say Cheryl. Its no consolation I know but I have the very same problem with my family. However, at some point for whatever reason my lot changed their name, just to spite their 3 x great grandaughter and make her life hell!!

Once the gin kicks in and I'm thinking more clearly I'll have a re-think.

Elouise
Sorry for the delay, friend rang and I have been trying to get off the phone.

I don't think Harriet could have been married before, but its a possibility. I had thought about Jones, but I can't find that marriage either. I have trawled through every marriage of a Harriet Cooper and Edward Joynes or Jones and this one is the only one that seemed to make an ounce of sense.

Thanks for looking

Cheryl

Elouise
Just for the record I know that from 1890 ish they were definately Joynes as I have a surviving family member and she has been quite good at aunts uncles, and cousins names etc. For example the Rissbrooks in the 1901 census ended up marrying one of the Joynes girls, so I know I have the right family

Cheryl

Elouise
I know what you mean having lived in Derbyshire, Cornwall and Wales even my own accent is a hotpotch of things.

I just can't work this one out though, I am inclined to believe that Harriet possibly couldn't recall who her father was or that the vicar got this wrong too.There are several mistakes on my own marriage cert so I know they aren't always a 100%.

I just don't want to go chasing the wrong family.

Cheryl

Elouise
The childrens birth certs states Edward Joynes as father (no other names), mother as Harriet Joynes formerly Cooper, again no mention of other names.
This is what makes it all so confusing.
Cheryl

Elouise
Yep, have that, based my original research on that....... found it to be absolute rubbish.
Edward is unmarried and living with his parents, (who do happen to be Elizabeth and Henry), in 1880.
Just goes to show submitted records can send you down the wrong path.
Cheryl

PS The Polly mentioned in the submitted record is actually Mary my Gt Grandmother, Mary was her "proper" name, but the family knew her a Polly

Elouise
I have had exactly the same thing!.
Everyone thinks that the Victorians were God fearing people and re marriages and sex before marriage was a no no, my lot seem to have been a bunch of dirty ******, and remarried and has sex with just about everyone at will!.

That's why I am a bit unsure as to what to do with this particular one.

I am wondering if I am going to have to buy a copy of each of the birth certs for Harriet Cooper's born in Willehall in 1858 ish (there are three of them) and see what happens.
Cheryl

Elouise
I have what I thought to be Harriets mother- Jemima Cooper marrying Abraham Bates in 1864 6c 121 in Dudley, she used the name Cooper in this one, but I don't have the cert.

Also her original marriage to George Cooper in 1852, they appear to have had 3 girls, two of which die very young and George himself dies in 1860.

I was almost certain that this was the right family, its just that the marriage cert I have of Harriet and Edward (admittantly it says Giles) states Harriet's father as Edward, not George!

See what I mean about going round in circles!

Cheryl

PS Jemima was a Morgan originally, then a Cooper, then a Bates

hi Cheryl, i know thiis is of no importance to you at the moment. during the 50s and 60s a family called Joynes lived over the road from me.

Elouise
Yes I have found Jemima Morgan in the census, though can't appear top lay my hands on it right now if my memory serves me correctly I think she was illegitamate,well I can't find any evidence of a father yet, though haven't looked that hard, too busy with Harriet & Edward trying to prove the research I have got. I haven't searched for George though.
Cheryl

Yorkshire Pud
I have a plethora of Joynes's, I can seem to find just about everyone's marriage, birth and death apart from this one.
Thanks for trying to help though, I just hope someone can come up with an answer to this.

By the way you've reminded me to buy more eggs, for my yorkshire's on Sunday!
Cheryl

Elouise
I found that too, but was unsure about it, as IGI has Harriet Cooper's mother as Jemima Morgan (Jemima doesn't appear to be a common name even then) and George Cooper, though in all fairness George had died by the time the 1861 came out and Ann may well be George's mother, not Mother of Jemima as the census says.

The more I look the more confused I get!!
Cheryl

I've been looking at other peoples trees on ancestry and Jemima Cooper pops up sooooooooooooo many times but nothing with Bates. Sorry, Cheryl thats not much use I know but I just want you to know the gin has kicked in and I'm still looking!

Lindylu and Elouise

Thank you both for trying on this one, as you can see the more I try, the more questions that come up!.

If only that marriage cert said George instead of Edward I would be laughing!

I seem to know so much about various Joynes, Cooper's and Morgan's but just can't prove a link.

Thanks again
Cheryl

Elouise

IF George is Harriets father I think he was born about 1829, don't know where though, possibly Willenhall area, this is from death in 1860 and a Bapt on IGI also.

Edward Joynes was born 1860 Willenhall.

IF Edward Cooper is Harriet's father, well your guess is as good as mine as I can't find a Harriet Cooper with a father Edward in the 1861 census, or even a death of an Edward Cooper between 1858 and 1861 that may mean that he died too.

I'm lost on the 1861 census too with either a mother Sophie or Jane as the IGI extracted records suggests maybe another possible.

You see IGI have extracted records for a Harriet born 1858, which match her age. One has Jemima Morgan & George Cooper as parents. Another two have an Edward as a father, but with a Sophie or Jane as mothers, all are the right age!

I think I definately need a drink!
Cheryl