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Sorry about that Janey lol

Don't worry Debra, you won't be putting me out. If I can, I'll try and get the marriage record. It may save you a little bit of time when in Liverpool or at least the price of a certificate.

Janey,

Sorry you are right, i was looking at the reply just before that one:

Marriages Sep 1898
Howard Elizabeth Ann Prescot 8b 1281
MILLS John Richard Prescot 8b 1281

I was mixing that 1 up with the right 1!

And stupid me saw that you had indeed put John and the kids had been born in Redruth. Then another 2 born in W Derby.

Sorry, i have sent another message to Karen. I had mentioned about Cornwall and Liverpool but not Newport.

From what i have gathered from Archies letter's he was fond of his beer! He missed out on many an interview being hung over from the night before! He was a labourer by trade and moved often from job to job, i assume through his drinking!

Thank you for the thought but i doubt i would come to Canada for that reason, i have friends in Canada and they have offered me accommodation any time i want to stay and as much as i want to visit them i have too many commitments here at the moments to go anywhere. My mum just wants me to be happy.

Thank you Janey for being so patient with me. I have asked my oldest son to sit down with me tomorrow after he gets home from college and go through everything, all the information. I have terrible short term memory loss and need to re-check constantly. Hence the need to get a printer and highlighter! :)

Deleted the info about Elizabeth Brankley and put it at the beginning of the previous post to solve the cross-posting problem. ;)

Uh oh. You must have confused your correspondent.

That IS your Elizabeth Brankley.

Yes, she was born in Newport, Monmouthshire, but she lived in Phillack, Cornwall.

1901 (from what I put on page 2) in Phillack, Cornwall:

> James Brankley 50
> Elizabeth A Brankley 47
> Elizabeth Brankley 19
Diana Brankley 16
Martha Brankley 14
Keziah Brankley 14
Edith Brankley 12
Florrie Brankley 10
Ernest R Brankley 4

Exactly as your correspondent said. Perhaps you gave the wrong birthplace for her. People who have her in their tree here also have Keziah and Florrie, that I noticed.

If the other GR member didn't know that the family ended up in Cornwall, it sounds like she isn't very closely related ...



Check back to page 2 for the births.

- Father John Richard Mills was born in Hayle, Cornwall (reg dist Redruth).
- Mother Elizabeth Ann Brankley was born in Newport, Monmouthshire (she was living in Phillack, Cornwall, where the Mills household was, in 1891 and 1901).
- They were married in Redruth registration district.
- All of their children born before 1911 were born in Hayle, Cornwall (see also on the 1911 census form).
- Two children (one of whom survived) were born in West Derby after 1911.

It looks like father JRM moved to Birmingham after his wife died -- she died in Liverpool in 1929 and son Ernest married in Liverpool in 1933, and stayed there so the family seems still to have been there. Or, for all we know, the parents themselves were estranged.

AJM would have been a young man when his mother died. The family may not have stayed close. Perhaps he went to Birmingham to his father, wasn't welcome ... possibly he didn't walk off, it was your dad's mum threw him out! Those letters from him sound like communications I had with an alcoholic I threw out. ;)

If New Brunswick turns out to be the place, Sylvia has a daughter in that end of the country. I'd offer hospitality, but I'm nearly as far from there as you are - and Sylvia is way farther away herself!

Just to let you know i have received a reply to an enquiry about Elizabeth Brankley:

Hi Elizabeth
I'm so sorry, but my Elizabeth was born and bred in Newport Wales to James Brankley and Elizabeth Ponsford.
Good luck in your searching,
Karen

Will keep trying!

Hi Janey and ladies,

Ty so much for all your hard work. I am extremely confident that this IS the right Mills family. Before i explain i would like to apologise to Janey for sending a pm instead of posting on thread :) I'm still learning!

I would like to thank Fanny for the email and copy of 1911 census sent to Janey. It sent chills down my spine. The record card does seem to be the health and pension card mentioned as he didn't have to pay or pay as much for doctor and meds once he had received it.

I am slightly confused about place of birth for Mills family, is it W Derby or Cornwall (Hayle) or Hayle for parents and W Derby for children? Maybe i am not understanding correctly, but as my dad would say if in doubt ask!

I spoke to my mum earlier and she said if births were registered in West Derby that would make sense as my nan lived not far from that area and would explain how they met if they lived close to each other as its something we have been unsure of if Archie lived in Birmingham.

SRS thank you as well for all your help. If you are going to Liverpool anyway and it isn't putting you out would you mind looking? If so no worries i can get there next week. :)

I feel awful as i haven't done much since you ladies set to work. My mum wasn't interested in what i was doing until this evening when i told her how helpful everyone was especially Janey. If i do have relatives in Canada my mum now wants me to go and meet them! LOL...i'm just hoping to put the pieces together and possibly prove that Archie didn't just walk away for no reason.

Thank you everyone for all your amazing help and hard work.

If the child is registered in the mother's surname (birth surname or married surname), not in the father's surname, the father could still be included in the registration details (if he consented/attended) ---- but no, his name will not appear in the GRO index. The only things that appear there are the surname of the child and the birth surname of the mother (as reported). (I have a very early one of these, from 1848: child registered with my grx2 grmother's birth surname, she is named with her birth surname, and the father is named on the certificate. There would be nowhere for that father's surname to be indexed, even after 1911, since it wasn't the child's surname and wasn't the mother's birth surname.)

SRS, you have hopelessly confused me, but I don't think that matters -- i.e. as long as whoever needs to understand it understands it, I'm irrelevant. ;) Do wait to hear from Debbie because I understood she was planning a run to the place in Liverpool to get a certificate, but maybe that was before being waylaid with the sick kid!

Janey


I THINK, only think, that if there is a father's name in the father's box, then that name would be indexed.


The father of an illegitimate child had to either attend at the registration of the birth, or otherwise send notification that he was the father and was agreeing to his name being on the certificate ................. possibly by submitting what we call a notarised letter.


His name could not be put on there willy nilly.


That's if the woman told the truth of course ................. if she said his name was her married name, and submitted a "maiden" name for herself then it would be accepted because you didn't (and still don't, I believe) have to submit evidence of marriage.




sylvia

Sorry Janey I think I may have misled you. (maybe not)

You're absolutely right about the records that you can look up at the record office ie baptisms, marriages and burials,

However, Lancashire BMD covers the births, marriages and deaths, it's like the GRO but local. It may be slightly cheaper than Southport (best to check) and it should have original signatures on the certs unlike Southport which I believe are copies.

You may have understood that ok but I wasn't very clear.

If I can get to Liverpool record office this week I'll try and look up the marriage if I can.

Ah, okay.

marriage = marriage
but
baptism doesn't = birth
and
burial doesn't = death

and it's baptisms and burials on the indexes in question, so that complicates them.

So I think I'm recommending getting
- Arthur James Mills 1906 birth cert
- Ernest R Mills 1933 marriage info from Liverpool Records Office if possible/preferable, or cert
- Ernest R Mills death cert 1983 -- if the marriage turns out to be the right ERM.


Sylvia - ta for "record card" - I suppose they might have been a household when the cards were first issued and that was the problem.

Registration of woman's child after husband's death ... hmm, yes -- if she said she was a widow and named him. ;)

In this case what seems to have happened was that she pretended her (her husband's) surname was her own birth surname, since she gave that surname as both when she registered the birth -- i.e. she didn't let on she was a widow known by her husband's surname. So it's still possible the real father's name is there.


Several record card possibilities - pictures here:

http://www.picturenation.co.uk/result?s=ww2

WW2 British Civilian Identity Card
WW2 British Clothing ration Book
(and of course food ration cards)
Wartime National Health & Pensions Insurance Card - maybe most likely?

Can I just say 2 things


1. I think the "record card" was something that was issued at the start of WW2 (or just previous to it), which a) proved you were a British citizen/resident, and b) allowed you to claim rations. I think, only think, that it is what was more commonly known as ration card. It proved where you lived etc, and allowed you to receive the foods that were rationed ...... eg, the very small amount of meat per week. If you were living in lodgings etc, then you had to hand your ration card over to the lodging house keeper, etc.

The war began in September 1939 .... so these cards would have been issued about that time



2,. The English system for registering births means that a woman's hsuband is automatically assumed to be the father of any and all her children, and his name is put on the birth certificate ....... even if he is dead.

I think the most extreme case that I have heard of is the woman who had her last child 10 years after her husband's death. The birth certificate still had the husband's name on it.




sylvia

I see you've got dates Janey for the births and deaths so it may be a bit easier :)

Hi Janey, i lost my original post that I typed which said that I haven't read the entire thread just came in at the end lol "spoilers" ;) Sorry Doctor Who joke.

Alas not so easily. No churches are mentioned for baptisms and burials as far as I know. Shame as it would make things so much easier.

Also the thing with baptisms and burials is that they don't give the exact same info as on certificates as you know and we'd have to check each church to find them (loads in Liverpool) but depending on the circumstances you could make educated guesses depending on religion and area etc and hope that the baptisms weren't too long after the birth and in the right area.

I still haven't found deaths/burials for some of my ancestors with common names, I haven't the heart to search through decades of burial records in every church. I'm hoping that I may get a clue one day or find the right cert.

Cheshire bmd were the first to publish their indexes, Lancashire and other areas have followed:

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php?form_action=local

I'd say it's their marriages that are a boon as they list the church, particularly if you narrow the date down by using free bmd or ancestry.

Edit: The indexes still aren't complete yet for all years and areas but they're getting better all the time.

Aha! See, I'm ignorant of things "on the ground". ;)

How about the 1906 birth certificate for this Archie/AJ? And Debbie's own dad's birth certificate? Same deal? And the Ernest R Rowe death?

Hi Janey, going by what you had typed, i found this on Lancashire bmd

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1933

Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MILLS Ernest R RICHARDSON Victoria Toxteth Park, St. Clement Liverpool 2064TP/7/291

By checking St Clements in Liverpool Record Office (hopefully on microfilm) from April-June 1933, it should provide the marriage details without the cost of a certificate.

Okay, next lesson. ;) Never send by PM what can be put in the thread! Makes me/us crazy ...

Archie's "record card" - no clue, me. My people were all in Canada for that war, remember! And WWII records are not accessible now, so confirming anything about his service, if he served, would be next to impossible.


Name: Ernest Rowe Mills
Birth Date: 1 Jan 1906
Death Registration Month/Year: Dec 1993
Age at death (estimated): 87
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Register number: H10D
District and Subdistrict: 0251H
Entry number: 118

The year of birth is wrong (it was 1909) but the birthdate matches Q1. In my experience it's not uncommon for people born early in the century to have their ages wrong (or for their families to have them wrong). My grandfather didn't find out he ws born in 1901, not 1900, til he retired. And he is the only Ernest Rowe Mills birth.

The informant's name on that death certificate might be a family member. There's an Ernest R Mills marriage in Liverpool in 1933 to Victoria Richardson. The death certificate info could lead you to living family.

If the 1933 marriage was him, this would be his wife's death:

Name: Victoria Mills
Birth Date: 24 Jan 1912
Death Registration Month/Year: 1983
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Merseyside
Volume: 36
Page: 0802

The marriage certificate would rule him in/out by age and father's name:

Name: Ernest R Mills
Spouse Surname: Richardson
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1933
Registration district: Liverpool
Registration county (inferred): Lancashire
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 128

There are 8 Richardson-Mills births in Liverpool 1934-1948.
- edit - I searched trees here at GR for all the names. There are two possibilities: Dorothy 1934, but there was another DM born that year who is probably the one in the tree here; and Robert 1948, of whom there was only one born that year, but I suspect error rather than match.


You did want to spend your entire savings on certificates, right?

May as well look at the other children.



Looking at the Ancestry trees Mary referred to -- none seems to belong to an immediate family member.

First one has children EA, RJ and John, and no further info about them.
Second one has no info about Elizabeth Ann Brankley beyond birth and death.
Third one has same as first. (A lot of people do just copy other people's trees.)
And the other two (tree is called the same surname as the third above) have nothing more.

So they seem to be distantish relations.

There are more trees with John Richard Mills. Even less info in them.


Those trees could be helpful if you decide this Archie/AJ is your man, for ancestral info. Personally, I trust nothing in trees at Ancestry and always do the research myself and compare the results.


For the other kids, the names are probably too common to find marriages with any confidence. So it isn't worth doing that until you have got as sure as you can that at least you're barking up the right tree.

The only children shown in trees at Ancestry are Richard James (who seems to have died before the 1911), John and Elizabeth Ann.

Oh yes -- did you look at the census image? They reported 6 children in total, 4 living. So there was one other childhood death before 1911.

And one death in infancy after the census:

Births Sep 1914
Mills Edith C Brankley W. Derby 8b 686
Deaths Sep 1914
Mills Edith C 0 West Derby 7b 548

Janey,

I am a complete newbie!

I do catch on pretty quicky tho and thank you for the help on finding my thread! I was getting quite frustrated with myself!

Yes if did seem like a pointless task to even me until you came along and became my fairy godmother! I will order the certificates as i also have a sick son atm as well as mother! Grrr :)

I crashed last night as soon as i got home so i didn't check. Shame!

:)

Crossed in the post.

Your Archie/AJ was born in 1906. I'm pretty sure nobody has him in their tree here.

The people in trees are his parents:

Richard (John) Mills, 1879, Hayle, Cornwall
Elizabeth (Ann) Brankley, 1881, Newport, Monmouthshire

The people who have them also have their siblings as shown in the 1891 census households I posted on page 2. But people who have Mills don't have Brankley, and vice versa, so the GR members would not be descendants of Archie's parents, but are maybe descendants of brothers/sisters of Archie's parents.

They are probably unlikely to have info about Archie and his siblings, but you never know.


Oh, another tip, for reading your thread.

Go to page 1.
At the top, it shows pages 1, 2 and 3.
Right click on page 2.
From the menu you get, left-click on "open in new tab".
Do the same for page 3.

Then you have all 3 pages open at once and can easily toggle back and forth from one to another, rather than having to reopen a page every time you want to read it and lose the one you're on.

Ah, FBG had wondered whether you were a rank newby and whether we should tell you about ordering certificates. ;)

GRO = General Register Office, and it's that index of registrations we're searching (at FreeBMD and Ancestry).

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

is where you order certificates on line. You said you are going here and there to get your dad's birth and marriage certificates, which is not a bad idea if you want to get them quick, but for Arthur James O Mills 1906 you'll need to order it, unless you feel like a jaunt to Cornwall. You can just order the others that way at the same time, unless you're very eager to get them and/or go for a drive.


Now, that business about Canada is extreeeemely tenuous. There could have been any number of AJ Mills-s who went to Canada on a troop ship in 1940 - especially younger ones. And there were and are several Archie Mills-s in Canada whom I've found by googling around -- for instance, it seems to be a name passed on in a family in Newfoundland. Since Atlantic Canada (including New Brunswick) has a significant Scots heritage, an Archie Mills there could well come from a long-established Scottish family, for instance.

I am really feeling confident about the 1906 birth / 1911 census being your man. After that, we're still at the point of wild speculation at the moment. And I do mean pretty wild. It's just that when someone drops out of sight in one place, it is worth looking for them somewhere else.

It will be good to have his exact birthdate to work with, from his birth certificate. Even if he happened to have changed his name (you would be surprised how many do -- my mum's surname, for instance, is totally fake, dating only from her grandfather, I discovered), a birthdate (and more ruling in/out research) could identify him.

And of course, you are very welcome. I started out figuring this was a pretty hopeless task, and just trying to collect every shred of info you had in case it might help. A lucky break, the 1911 census (and yes, yes, my looking for and finding it!), was key.

Oh, speaking of looking for and finding -- I just saw your PM. And I've explained "My threads". Newbies everywhere!