Military Chat

researching my friends grandfather, William John Jones we can not find a birth for him' 1883

Found some of his military papers the certificate for the service badge correct as it as his right address on , his service number is 477315 , some of the paper work with the same number seems to belong to another Willian John Jones from Scotland wrong age and single, how come, any ideas.

Thanks Ann

Sometimes the paperwork in service records does get mixed up - presumably a clerical error with some overworked clerk confusing two people of the same name.

What is your friend's grandfather's birthplace stated to be on census or other records?


For our reference:

Wm John Jones
in the UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
Name: Wm John Jones
Regiment or Corps: Royal Army Medical Corps 3rd E Ang FA
Regimental Number: 477315

Enlisted: 8/9/1915.
discharged: 29/3/1919



Wm John Jones
in the UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923
View Original Image on Fold3. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Name: Wm John Jones
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 477315, 2627
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Royal Army Medical Corps
Service Branch: Army
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Survived
Reference Number: 11/M61475, Z/Ramc 5474
Next of Kin:
Name Relation to Soldier
Wm John Jones


I don't have a sub to Fold3 to see the full record, unfortunately.

Searching with his other service number 2627:

W J Jones
in the UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
Name: W J Jones
[Wm J Jones]
Regiment or Corps: Royal Army Medical Corps
Regimental Number: 2627

He served in Egypt. [ and France, from a page in the service record.]



William John Jones
in the UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: William John Jones
Gender: Male
Document Date: 1915
Residence Place: 121 Manor Road, Leyton <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Military Date: 1915
Relationship to Soldier: Self (Head)
Regimental Number: 2627
Regiment Name: East Anglian Field Amb
Number of Images: 23
Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
William John Jones

Address on discharge - 30 High Street , Lanark.

Address when claiming "for a disabililty on being demobilised": (Sept 1919)
80 High Street, Lanark, Scotland.
(Number 477315 and RAMC also mentioned on that page, so the right person.)

But the next page is about his award of the King's Certificate in Sept 1919, with address 121 Manor Road, Leyton.


Then it moves on to a document dated Fab 1919, for William J Jones, 477315, RAMC, with "address for pay" 80 High Street, Lanark.

BORN 1894 - so different person ??

Other blurred forms with the Lanark address; but with correct service number, and some with correct dates .


When did your friend's grandfather marry?

Thank you for your reply

, my friends grandfather was William John Jones some times he is down as William Thomas as in the 1911 census born st LUKES and on some of his children's baptism certs, on the 1939 register birth 2 June 1883

have got a few birth certs for him nothing matches. He married Elizabeth Maud French 1903 Haggerston.

121 Manor rd Leyton is the correct address.

I will have study of what you have found bit more than I did thank you.

I meant to add -
the Lanark address is just an address for posting purposes.

It doesn't necessarily mean that your friend's grandfather (or a different man of the same name, if that's the case) was Scottish.

Iin fact, the only man of (almost) that name born in Scotland c1894 was a John William Jones, born in 1894 in Elgin - and he joined the Royal Navy, so he's not the RAMC man with address in Lanark:

John William Jones
in the UK, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services, 1848-1939
Name: John William Jones
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 8 Mar 1894
Birth Place: Elgin
First Service Date: 26 Jan 1911
First Ship Served On: Ganges II
Last Service Date: 3 Sep 1919
Last Ship Served On: Pembroke I
Service Number: J10792

For our reference:

William Jones
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: William Jones
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 2 Jun 1883
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 159 Beaumont Road
Residence Place: Leyton, Essex, England
Occupation: Arp Leyton Boro Bouncer [ ARP Leyton Boro Council ]
Line Number: 9
Schedule Number: 95
Sub Schedule Number: 3
Enumeration District: CDEC
Borough: Leyton
Registration district: 188B-3
Household Members Age
Edward R Jones 24
Elizabeth Jones 56
William Jones 56
Hannah R Jones 19

Births Jun 1915 (>99%)
Jones Edward R French W.Ham 4a 751

Births Jun 1920 (>99%)
Jones Hannah R French W. Ham 4a 790




William Thomas Jones
in the 1911 England Census
Name: William Thomas Jones
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Husband
Gender: Male
Birth Place: St Luke
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Country: England
Street Address: 13 Myrtle Street, Hoxton N
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 8
Estimated Marriage Year: 1903
Occupation: Carman Army Pensioner
Registration District Number: 16
Sub-registration District: Shoreditch South
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Piece: 1331
Household Members:
Name Age
William Thomas Jones 28 - carman, army pensioner
Elizabeth Maud Jones 28
George Ernest Samuel Jones 6



JONES, GEORGE ERNEST SAMUEL mmn FRENCH
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 23


William John must have been in the army prior to WW1. He was an army pensioner in 1911.
And yet, in 1915, on his service record, (with address 121 Manor Rd), when asked "Do you now belong to, or have you ever served in. . . ." he answers "No".

Going through the service record again - keeping things in chronological order in the hope of making sense of it:

On 8 Sept 1915, William John Jones, 2627, of 3rd East Anglian Field Ambulance, attested for 4 years service in Territorial Force. Address 121 Manor Road, Leyton.
No marital status mentioned.
On enlistment he's 21 years 7 months old , and 5ft 11ins tall.

[Therefore born 1894 - are you sure you've got the right man in the censuses ??]

Feb 1919 - a [something] Certificate and Certificate of Identity, re William J Jones, 477315, Private RAMC, of 80 High Street, Lanark, born 1894.

21 Feb 1919 - Private WJ Jones, 477315 RAMC is transferred to dispersal camp. from City of London Military Hospital.

Total service of W J Jones, 3rd East Anglian Field Ambulance, was from 8 Sept 1915 to 20 March 1919
That page has a stamp dated March 1919, re disembodiment, signed by WJ Jones, address 80 High Street, Lanark. That stamp is then over-stamped with "Cancelled".

31/3/1919, forms are sent to 477315, Private WJ Jones , of Lanark, and are received by him on 4/4 /1919. He's informed that as he's not discharged but only disembodied, he's not entitled to the Silver War Badge or King's Certificate.

Then there's a document dated May 1919, re statement of disability and claim for pension, for Private WJ Jones, 477315, Private, RAMC. (No DOB or address mentioned on that page).

2 Sept 1919, letter to WJ Jones, 80 High Street, Lanark, notifying him of final discharge, and advising him that Silver War Badge and King's Certificate have been applied for.

King's Certificate sent on 17 Sept 1919 to WJ Jones, Private RAMC, 477315, and received by him on 20 Sept 1919. Address 121 Manor Road.

Awarded War Badge & Certificate, sent on 22 Sept 1919; received by WJJ on 25 Sept 1919.
Address 121 Manor Road.

1919 - Military History Sheet of WJ Jones, 8/9/1915 to 20/03/1919.
Awarded 1914-515 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal.
NOK - aunt, Gertrude Catherine Jacob, 121 Manor Road. <<<<<<<<<<

Private William John Jones, 477315, of 133 Field Ambulance, RAMC, address 80 High Street, Lanark, YOB 1894 , single - applied for pension because of disablement (tonsillitis and spinal fever). 1919.
Date of (transfer ?) - 20/03/1919
Address: High Street, Lanark.

25 Oct 1920 - Private WJ Jones, 2627, East Anglian F A, RAMC, acknowledges receipt of the 1914-15 Star.



No mention of a wife, or YOB 1883, in any of that.
Are you sure you've got the right man?

??
JONES, WILLIAM JOHN mmn HART
GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 317


The aunt Gertrude Catherine Jacob:

Gertrude Jacob
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Gertrude Jacob
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Percy Jacob
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Leyton
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Leyton
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: West Ham
Sub-registration District: North Leyton
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors:
Piece: 1618
Folio: 128
Page Number: 11
Household Schedule Number: 66
Household Members:
Name Age
Percy Jacob 27
Gertrude Jacob 27
Hilda Jacob 4
Gladys Jacob 2
Harold Jacob 2 Weeks
Wm Jones 7 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Barbara Ford 70



Catherine Gertrude Hart
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Catherine Gertrude Hart
Registration Year: 1896
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: West Ham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 421
Records on Page:
Name
Catherine Gertrude Hart
Percy Johnson Jacob

William Jones
in the 1911 England Census
Name: William Jones
Age in 1911: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Relation to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Leyton, Essex
Civil Parish: Low Leyton
Country: England
Street Address: 121 Manor Road, Leyton, Essex <<<<<<<<<<<<
Marital status: Single
Occupation: Clerk
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration District: North Leyton
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Piece: 9656
Household Members:
Name Age
Percy Jacob 37
Gertrude Jacob 37
Hilda Jacob 14
Gladys Jacob 12
Percy Jacob 10
Ivy Jacob 7
William Jones 17


He is therefore definitely NOT the man born 1883, who married Elizabeth Maud French in 1903.

Here's the marriage of WJJ of 121 Manor Road.

Looks like the service record is correct - with both addresses.

121 Manor Road was the address where he'd been brought up by his aunt and uncle, and the Lanark address was that of his fiancee.



JONES
WILLIAM JOHN
PATON
ELIZABETH CASSE. . . . .
1920
648/ 71
Lanark

Married 5 Nov 1920, at 80 High Street, Lanark.

W J Jones, bachelor, sales manager in boot factory.
Usual address: 16 Buckingham Road, Leicester.
Father: John Salisbury Jones, Captain, Mercantile Marine, deceased.
Mother: Esther Jones, maiden surname HART, deceased.

E C Paton, spinster, sorting clerk and telegraphist.
Usual address: 80 High Street, Lanark.
Father: James Paton, master painter (printer ?)
Mother: Isabella Paton, maiden surname Thomson

His parents' marriage:

Marriages Sep 1879 (>99%)
HART Esther Westbrook St. Olave 1d 342
Jones John Salisbury St. Olave 1d 342


John Palisbury Jones
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: John Palisbury [Salisbury on image ] Jones
Gender: Male
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 17 Jul 1879
Marriage Place: St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, Southwark, England
Father: Griffith John Jones, mariner
Spouse: Esther Westbrook Carl [ Hart mistranscribed]
Register Type: Parish Register

Esther's father: William Taylor Hart, master mariner.



A sibling:

George William Jones
in the Essex, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1918
Name: George William Jones
Baptism Date: 26 Jan 1890
Baptism Place: Essex, England
Father: John Salisbury Jones
Mother: Esther Westbrook Jones


George William Jones
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: George William Jones
Age: 0
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Registration Place: West Ham, Essex, United Kingdom
Death Date: Mar 1890
Inferred Death Place: Essex, United Kingdom
Volume: 4a
Page: 130


Father's death/probate:

John Salisbury Jones
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name: John Salisbury Jones
Death Date: 8 Nov 1901
Death Place: Essex, England
Probate Date: 25 Feb 1902
Probate Registry: London, England

Address: 34 Murchison Road, Leyton. Master mariner. Died at sea.
Probate to John Mertens, cargo superintendent.

Mother's baptism - but I don't see her death:

Esther Westbrook Hart
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1919
Name: Esther Westbrook Hart
Age: 0
Birth Date: 26 Apr 1859
Baptism Date: 15 May 1859
Baptism Place: Liverpool, St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
Father: William Taylor Hart. mariner
Mother: Elizabeth Hart
Address: George's Dock Gate North.


Esther W. Jones
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Esther W. Jones
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relationship to Head: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: 58 Gurney Rd
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration District: West Ham
Sub registration district: Stratford
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors:
Piece: 1706
Folio: 108
Page Number: 38
Household Members:
Name Age
John Mertens 30 - shipping clerk
Sarah Ann Mertens 28
John T. Mertens 3
William A.B. Mertens 2
Ethel L.E. Mertens
Sarah Thompson 67
Esther W. Jones 21


Esther W Hart
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Esther W Hart
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: 1859
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Litherland
Ecclesiastical parish: Seaforth
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: West Derby
Sub-registration District: Litherland
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 80
Piece: 2726
Folio: 90
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
James Westbrook 59
Esther Westbrook 56
Kate Burns 72
Elizabeth Hart 33 - mariner's wife
Esther W Hart 2
Dianah Edwards 31 - servant


Baptism of a sister of Esther:

Elizabeth Hart
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Elizabeth Hart
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28 Apr 1864
Baptism Date: 12 Jun 1864
Baptism Place: St Nicholas,Liverpool,Lancashire,England
Father: William Taylor Hart
Mother: Elizabeth

I'm not sure which man you want to follow - the one who married Elizabeth Maud French, or the one who lived at 121 Manor Road and married Elizabeth Paton.
I may be wasting my time here, chasing the wrong man's family!


Catherine Gertrude Hart
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Catherine Gertrude Hart
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relationship to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Wanstead
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: "Merchant Seamans Orphan Asylum"
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration District: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: Merchant Seamans Orphan Asylum
Neighbors:
Piece: 1729
Folio: 86
Page Number: 5


Catherine Gertrude was a half-sister of WJ's mother Elizabeth:


Catharine Gertrude Hart
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Catharine Gertrude Hart
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 14 Sep 1873
Baptism Place: St Barnabas' Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father:
William Taylor Hart
Mother: Sophia
FHL Film Number: 2147909


Another half-sister:

Ada Sophia Hart
in the Essex, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1918
Name: Ada Sophia Hart
Baptism Date: 20 Aug 1876
Baptism Place: Essex, England
Father: William Taylor Hart
Mother: Sophia Hart


Probably William Taylor Hart's second marriage:

William Taylor Hart
in the India, Select Marriages, 1792-1948
Name: William Taylor Hart
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 23 Apr 1872
Marriage Place: Kidderpore, Bengal, India
Father: George Hart
Spouse: Sophia Hart
FHL Film Number: 499046

WJJ's wife's death:

Deaths Jun 1969 (>99%)
JONES Elizabeth Cassels 24Jy1893 Waltham For 5e 1073

Elizabeth Cassels Jones
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name: Elizabeth Cassels Jones
Death Date: 9 Jun 1969
Death Place: London
Probate Date: 15 Jul 1969
Probate Registry: London
Address: Flat 003, Enterprise House, 112 King's Head Hill, London E4



Her birth:

PATON
LIZZIE CASSELS
F
1893
648/ 118
Lanark


Lizzie Paton
in the 1901 Scotland Census
Name: Lizzie Paton
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's Name: James Paton
Mother's Name: Bella T Paton
Gender: Female
Where born: Lanark, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 648
Registration district: Lanark
Civil parish: Lanark
Town: Lanark
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 80 High St <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 97
Line: 20
Roll: CSSCT1901_340
Household Members Age Relationship
James Paton 40 Head
Bella T Paton 40 Wife
Charlotte Paton 16 Daur (Daughter)
Mary Paton 14 Daur (Daughter)
Janet Paton 12 Daur (Daughter)
Minnie Paton 10 Daur (Daughter)
Lizzie Paton 8 Daur (Daughter)
Isabella Paton 3 Daur (Daughter)

Wm J Jones
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Wm J Jones
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 15 Feb 1894
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 58 St George's Road
Residence Place: Ilford, Essex, England
Occupation: Officer H M Customs & Excise
Line Number: 25
Schedule Number: 85
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: CCRG
Borough: Ilford
Registration district: 191-2
Household Members Age
Wm J Jones 45
Elizabeth C Jones 46
[and one closed record ]


They had a son - at least I'm 99% sure he's theirs, as Elizabeth's father was James, and Ian is Gaelic for John:

Births Jun 1923 (>99%)
Jones Ian J P Paton W.Ham 4a 675

JONES, IAN JAMES PATON
GRO Reference: 1923 J Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 675


Ian James P Jones
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Ian James P Jones
Death Age: 83
Birth Date: 10 May 1923
Registration Date: Jul 2006
Registration District: West Surrey
Inferred County: Surrey
Register Number: F22C
District and Subdistrict: 761/1F
Entry Number: 037


Ian J P Jones
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Ian J P Jones
Registration Date: Apr 1946
[May 1946]
[Jun 1946]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Bangor
Inferred County: Caernarvonshire
Spouse: Dorothy Aspden
Volume Number: 11b
Page Number: 1011

Until about 1920 each regiment had their own numbers so several serving soldiers would have the same number but serving in different regiments. If in WW1 they were sent to another regiment they would be given a new number.

Todays soldier are given a unique number that goes with him whatever his corps or regiment.

Looks like back to square one, that is not my friends grandfather at 121 high rd Leyton

, he was at 56 Dove rd Haggerston on his marriage cert same as his bride Elizabet Maud French in 1903'

1911 census 13 Myrtle st Hoxton the only census can find him in Army pensioner my friend said he was deaf


in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: William Jones
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 2 Jun 1883
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 159 Beaumont Road
Residence Place: Leyton, Essex, England
Occupation: Arp Leyton Boro Bouncer [ ARP Leyton Boro Council ]

He died 1946 westham

thank you for the trouble you went to to help me very much appreciated.

Ann

Did he name a father when he married?

He gave his father as George Jones one of the witness was a Emily Jones no luck over the years of pinning them down come to a dead end each time. ANN

???

Name: William Jones
Gender: Male
Age: 7
Birth Date: Oct 1883
Admission Date: 2 Mar 1891
School: Walnut Tree Walk School
Father: George Jones
Notes: Walnut Tree Walk School (0304) opened in 1875. Remodelled in 1907

Address 5 Temple Street

1911 says he was slightly deaf.

In 1905 they were living at 21 Drysdale Street:

George Ernest Samuel Jones
in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1920
Name: George Ernest Samuel Jones
Baptism Age: 0
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 19 Mar 1905
Baptism Date: 2 Apr 1905
Baptism Place: Saint Leonard Shoreditch, City of London, England
Father: William John Jones
Mother: Elizabeth Maud Jones