Military Chat

If there was a JAMES c1875, he IS NOT on any census with James and Catherine(nee Collins)

Please C&P the 1881 record you say is him.

Thank you all very much.

James Jnr (correction) bc1875 (shown 5yrs 1881) then sister Gertrude bc1879 (shown as 2yrs) This James MAY be the 'immigrant' .I need to follow up.

(only other son Joseph b c1883 became a 'Marist Brother' in Scotland)

I haven't looked at any other trees - I'm just having another (annual?) 'go' with my own research.

Thank you again - Valerie

No, Valerie, the Bricklayer is Catherine's husband. I would not have said he was a Bricklayer if he wasn't!!!
Apart from which, they didn't have a son James!!!!!!!

1911
James Bryan Head Married Male 76 1835 Private Means Cork Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 66 1845 Private Means Banty Ireland
Elizabeth A D Leeuw Daughter Widow Female 40 1871 Private Means East Greenwich
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 31 1880 Designer Blouses East Greenwich
Annie Bryan Daughter Single Female 29 1882 Underclothing Machinist East Greenwich

1901

James Bryan Head Married Male 61 1840 Bricklayer Cork, Cork, Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 56 1845 - Ireland
Marie Hale Daughter Widow Female 36 1865 Millinery Saleswoman Greenwich, Kent, England
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 22 1879 Assist - Blouse Maker Greenwich, Kent, England
Annie Bryan Daughter Single Female 19 1882 Feather Curler Quill Greenwich, Kent, England

1891

James Bryan Head Married Male 50 1841 General Labourer -
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 46 1845 - Ireland
Ellen Louise Bryan Daughter Single Female 22 1869 Purse Maker Greenwich, Kent, England
Elizabeth Bryan Daughter Single Female 22 1869 Feather Curler Greenwich, Kent, England
Catherine Bryan Daughter Single Female 17 1874 Wreath Maker Greenwich, Kent, England
Gertrude Bryan Daughter - Female 12 1879 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Annie Bryan Daughter - Female 9 1882 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Joseph Bryan Son - Male 7 1884 Scholar London, Middlesex, England


1881
James Bryan Head Married Male 40 1841 General Laborer Cork, Cork, Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 36 1845 - Ireland
Ellen Bryan Daughter Single Female 12 1869 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Elizabeth Bryan Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Catherine Bryan Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Greenwich, Kent, England
Ellen Collins Mother In Law Widow Female 75 1806 - Cork, Cork, Ireland


Not sure where the bride's second forename came from...........

Marriages Jun 1896 (>99%)
Bryan Elizabeth Theresa Whitechapel 1c 564
De Leeuw Francis Whitechapel 1c 564

1901
29, Kenmure Road, Hackney, London & Middlesex, England
Frances de Leeuw Head Married Male 30 1871 Surgical Instr Maker Highbury, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth de Leeuw Wife Married Female 30 1871 - Greenwich, Kent, England

Deaths Mar 1907 (>99%)
DE LEEUW Francis 35 Hackney 1b 332

?????

Marriages Sep 1922 (>99%)
COLBURN Harry De Leeuw St. Olave 1d 432
DE LEEUW Elizabeth T Colburn St Olave 1d 432


1939
45 Friendly Street, Deptford, Lewisham, Deptford, London, England
Harry Colburn 05 Dec 1862 Male Conduct Road System Retired Married 177 1
Elizabeth Colburn 26 Dec 1871 Female Unpaid Domestic Dutie Married 177 2

Reverted to her original name

Deaths Dec 1952 (>99%)
COLBURN Elizabeth A 81 Hackney 5c 834

cont

...thanks too for finding John's marriage to Mary McCarthy.

James and John's parents were John & Mary Brien (nee Leary)
(also a Michael - b1832 Bandon -I have link with his descendants.)

My reason being on the 'Military Board' was because their father (John Brien bc1800 Cork) had been in the Army - and my ggt/grandad 'George Brien' b1829 had been in the 'Indian Mutiny'..
(seems a lot of Irish young men were recruited 1850+ (a form of refuge perhaps)

Thanks again - Valerie

Sorry to labour the point -
but how do you know that James 1835 and John 1832 are your gggg's siblings?

Have you found documentary proof, step by step, working back from whichever of your parents is the direct descendant?

As already said, you can't take anything in someone else's tree as true unless you find documents to back it up.

Many thanks for your interest and help.


The James Bryan shown as 'bricklayer' may well be their son b c1879.

James bc1835 and John bc1832 are my ggg/grandfather's siblings.

My goal is to fill in the many 'blanks' in my Brien/Bryan family/ies..

(I'm trying to find a 'Bryan' family who emigrated to 'the other side of Aus -from a long way back'). (quoted from an elderly relative visiting W Aus many years ago) ..... (other side being NSW/VIC/Qld)

Thank you. - Valerie

re post at 0235

Johannes
Last name Bryan
Address ?? Carthay
Marriage year 1860
Marriage date 21 Feb 1860
Parish Millstreet
Alternative parish names Callen, Cullen
Diocese Kerry
Spouse's first name(s) Maria
Spouse's last name Leary
Spouse's address Knockstunagh
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Timothei
Father's last name Bryan
Mother's first name(s) Maria
Mother's last name Bryan
Spouse's father's first name(s) Michaelis
Spouse's father's last name Leary
Spouse's mother's first name(s) Maria
Spouse's mother's last name Leary
Repository
National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634761#page/1/mode/1up

John
Last name Brien
Birth year -
Baptism year 1832
Baptism date 24 Jun 1832
Residence Vagrant
Parish Annakissy
Alternative parish names Anakissy, Clenor, Killavullen, Monanimny, Monanimny, Clenor and Wallstown, Monanimy, Wallstown
Diocese Cloyne
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Brien
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name Leary

John
Last name Brien
Address -
Marriage year 1858
Marriage date 16 Feb 1858
Parish Annakissy
Alternative parish names Anakissy, Clenor, Killavullen, Monanimny, Monanimny, Clenor and Wallstown, Monanimy, Wallstown
Diocese Cloyne
Spouse's first name(s) Mary
Spouse's last name McCarthy
Spouse's address -
County Cork
Country Ireland

;-) ;-) ;-)

Thanks , ErikaH.
No wonder I couldn't find any of the family on Ancestry in 1911.

I don't see how you can be certain of anything until you get a copy of the marriage cert

I'm assuming you'd have mentioned if you'd already obtained a copy

Which of James and Catherine's children is your proven direct line?

Ancestry have made a real mess of 1911

Name: Gertrude Ryan
Age in 1911: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Greenwich
Civil Parish: Tottenham
Country: England
Street Address: 4A Howard Rd, S Tottenham N
Marital status: Single
Occupation: Designer Blouses
Registration District Number: 132
Sub-registration District: West Tottenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 7294
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ryan 76
Catherine Ryan 66
Elizabeth A De Lenn 40
Gertrude Ryan 31
Annie Ryan 29

1911

4A Howard Road S Tottenham N, Tottenham, Middlesex, England
James Bryan Head Married Male 76 1835 Private Means Cork Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 66 1845 Private Means Banty Ireland
Elizabeth A De Leeuw Daughter Widow Female 40 1871 Private Means East Greenwich
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 31 1880 Designer Blouses East Greenwich
Annie Bryan Daughter Single Female 29 1882 Underclothing Machinist East Greenwich



BRYAN, ANNIE COLLINS
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1010

BRYAN, ELIZABETH ANN COLLINS
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 851

In 1901, James was a BRICKLAYER
In earlier years, he was a General Labourer

Assuming that the James Bryan (1841) who married Catherine Collins is definitely the man you're looking for, and that you've worked back to him through descendants, I'm afraid nothing in your last post above proves that James O'Brien/Brien 1835 is the same man.

Where was James 1835 living in 1911, please?

Do you have the 1863 marriage cert ? If so, what was James's father's name and occupation?

Thank you all - much appreciated.

'Roots-Ireland' findings (volunteer (Gin's) some years ago)
(parents John & Mary Brien (nee Leary)

James O'Brien b30/9/1935 Milford -townland of Kilbolane
sponsers Js Leary/Margaret O'Brien

John Brien (aka 'George') b 2/12/1829 Dunmanway res. 'VAGUS'
( ggrt grandad -joined HEIC c1853 as 'George Brien') (found)

Michael Brien b1831 Bandon (have found)
John/Julia? Brien b24/6/1832 Annakissy (not found)
Margaret Brien b1/12/1837 Passage West Cork " "

Hearsay... .'.family moved to London - at time of famine '- (not found)

Re James:-:
1911 shows his age '76yrs' b Cork ...(.more fitting with birthdate 1835)

Thank you again. (I may well be back!)
Valerie
WAus

1891 census says that James 1841, who married Catherine Collins, was born in Kilerowin.

Perhaps that's Kilroan ??

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/COR/Kilroan

But a good number of miles away from Bantry - approx 54.


There are baptism records for several children named James Bryan or Brien (and other variations) in Cork & Ross Diocese, 1834-42.
None specifically in Bantry or Kilroan/Killowen.

This man , a solder in Greenwich/Woolwich, would seem to be a better fit with the James in the censuses, re age and location:

James Bryan
in the 1861 England Census
Name: James Bryan
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: 1839
Relation: Soldier
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Woolwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:: [ Gunner ]
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Greenwich
Sub-registration District: Woolwich Dockyard
ED, institution, or vessel: Royal Artillery Barracks
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 1
Piece: 405
Folio: 116
Page Number: 10


Why do you think that James c1841 (in the censuses) was ever a solder?


EDIT:
But maybe this is that man in the RA:

James Bryan
in the 1881 England Census
Name: James Bryan
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Gender: Male
Where born: Wexford, Ireland
Civil Parish: Minster in Sheppey
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address: Military Barracks Garrison Sheerness
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Bombardier [ RA ]
Registration District: Sheppey
ED, institution, or vessel: The Military Barracks
Neighbors:
Piece: 980
Folio: 109
Page Number: 15
James Bryan 40
Mary Bryan 39 - wife, Bengal, India
Edward Bryan 7 - Calcutta
John Walter Bryan 5 - Morar (?), India
Lawrence Fredk. Bryan 3 - Fort Attock, India


As already said - there are so many James Brien/Bryans born in Ireland, in the army, of about the right age.

maybe
James
Last name Brien
Birth year -
Baptism year 1834
Baptism date 14 Feb 1834
Residence Mo?olm
Parish Caheragh
Alternative parish names Caharagh
Diocese Cork and Ross
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Danl
Father's last name Brien
Mother's first name(s) Cathe
Mother's last name Collins
Repository
National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632637#page/1/mode/1up

edit
Daniel
Last name Brien
Address Dunmy
Marriage year 1834
Marriage date 25 May 1834
Parish Drimoleague
Alternative parish names Drimoleague and Drinagh, Drinagh
Diocese Cork and Ross
Spouse's first name(s) Catherine
Spouse's last name Collins
Spouse's address Drinah
County Cork
Country Ireland
Repository
National Library of Ireland

J?
Last name Brien
Birth year -
Baptism year 1843
Baptism date 11 Dec 1843
Parish Bantry
Diocese Cork and Ross
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Danl
Father's last name Brien
Mother's first name(s) Catha
Mother's last name Connor
Repository
National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632488#page/1/mode/1up


CAHERAGH

This mostly rural parish lies between Drimoleague and Ballydehob and between Skibbereen and Bantry.

Presumably you have worked back to James Bryan and Catherine Collins through their descendants, checking mmns?

There are other couples named James and Catherine Bryan/Brien in London, also born in Ireland.

Unless there's something on the marriage cert to indicate that he had been a soldier, there's nothing obvious to prove that the James in the 55th is the same man.

YOBs are unreliable - and certainly don't match in the records Maddie has posted.

In 1871 the James who married Catherine Collins is said to be born c1841.
1881 also gives his YOB as 1841.
So does 1891.
1901 says c1840

this one
James
Last name Brien
Birth year -
Baptism year 1835
Baptism date 30 Sep 1835
Parish Freemount
Alternative parish names Milford
Diocese Cloyne
County Limerick, Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Jn
Father's last name Brien
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name Leary
Repository
National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633758#page/1/mode/1up

nowhere near bantry :-(

WOW! ...'yes' ..thank you - that's him/them.

I have just uncovered a note here - of his birth ... 'Milford' Cork 30/9/1835.
(parents John & Mary Brien (nee Leary) .. (Possibly nr Bantry).

(his birthplace details from a 'Roots Ireland' volunteer ... some years ago).

Thank you for all contributions- I shall print/save all this info - and next try the 'Chelsea Pensioner's'.Office.

Thanks again- Valerie
.




.