Military Chat

Thank you mgnv for your meticulous research.
Like many others my great uncle George got so near to the end of WW1-being gassed in June 1918, which led to his death in 1920. Sheila

At http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/
I can drill down thru Army, then The Regiments and Corps, then The Infantry Regiments, then DLI to read:

18th (Service) Battalion (1st County)
This and other battalions (below) often known by the name of the Durham Pals.
Formed at Cocken Hall in County of Durham on 10 September 1914 by Col. R.Burdon and a committee. Moved in December to Fencehouses, then back to Cocken Hall in February 1915 and to Fencehouses again in March.
May 1915 : moved to Cramlington then Ripon, came under orders of 93rd Brigade in 31st Division. Went to Fovant in September.
6 December 1915 : sailed from Liverpool for Egypt, arriving Port Said on 21 December. Went on to France, arriving 11 March 1916.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/durham-light-infantry/

I can then take the 31 div link in the footer to get to:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/31st-division/


For details on the battles, I can click on the Battles tab in the banner, then more France and Flanders.

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There's something wrong with "Thiepval. 27.06.1918" - either the date or place or both, as AG's link makes clear (abt 40% of way thru).
Looking at the entry "27th Jun 1918 VIEUX BERQUIN", we see several trench map refs - e.g., at foot of page we have E.23a.80.55 to E.17.c.6.6

So lets demonstrate how to read trench map refs.
First of all we need to know the sheet number.
This might be given in the war diary, e.g.,
http://data2.archives.ca/e/e042/e001046216.jpg
[This example was taken from the 3rd Canadian Infantry Brigade, who had recently been taken out of line near Arras, and had been billeted in villages 5, 10 & 18 km W of Arras on Sheet 36a, and had just moved to Sheet 62d]

The map refs in AG's post are from a relatively featureless part of Sheet 36a, so lets look at Thiepval on Sheet 57d.
The village ruins are strung out along the road, in R.25 amd R.26 - towards the W end of the village just S of the road is the church near a pond.
Its map ref is R.25.d.5.6, or (more fully) 57d.R.25.d.5.6

We can go to http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm

and click on Sheet 57d then map 22WW1MAP
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A3983/-/collection



A sheet was divided into supersquares labelled A thru X

A B C D E F
G H I J K L
M N O P Q R
S T U V W X

A supersquare was divided into a 5 x 6 or 6 x 6 set of 1000 yard squares numbered 1 thru 30 or 1 thru 36

A square was divided into 4 quadrants labelled a thru d

a b
c d

Lets go to a larger scale map 186WW1MAP
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4207/-/collection

Along the gidlines of each sqare you'll see hatchmarks ticking off 50 yad marks
So count off the hatchmarks from the quadrant boundary, first heading east, then heading north.
So we get an easting of 5 and a northing of 6 - this gives us a 50 yd square - the size of half a football pitch (from goal line to centre line)

Sometimes we get a bit nore precision, e.g., E.23a.80.55 which looks like aiming for a 25 yd square.
Sometimes we get full precision of a 5 yd square, e.g., 57d.e.28.c.19.53 (taking a random name)
This is from a CWGC concentration document and shows where William Noonan was initially buried.
CWGC say
These record details of individuals who were originally buried in smaller or isolated cemeteries, but who, at a later date, were exhumed and reburied in war cemeteries. The concentration of cemeteries allowed otherwise unmaintainable graves to be moved into established war grave cemeteries where the Commission could ensure proper commemoration.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/593751/noonan,-william/#&gid=null&pid=1



For AG's quoted map refs, the route to go is:
http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm
then Sheet2 36a. I woild say the best map is 039WW1MAP

Initially, 31 division had 3 brigades (92md, 93rd, 94th). Initially, each bde had 4 infantry battalions.
By the end of 1917, almost all bns were under-strength, some quite severely so, and conscription hadn't really kicked in yet.
To remedy this the British reduced most bdes to just 3 bns (the guards divs were exceptions to this reduction)
The weakest bns were broken up and their menwent as reinforcements to other bns. This change was completed by the spring of 1918.
The 18th DLI was in the 93rd bde both before and after the change.

If one searches at: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

for wo95 18 Durham Light Infantry

one gets 2 relevant hits, viz:


31 Division:
93 Infantry Brigade:
18 Battalion Durham Light Infantry (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
Durham Light Infantry
Reference: WO 95/2361/1
Description:
18 Battalion Durham Light Infantry
Date: 1916 Mar. - 1919 Feb.


31 Division: 92 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb). 92 Infantry...
Reference: WO 95/4590
Description:
31 Division:
92 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
92 Infantry Brigade: 10 Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
92 Infantry Brigade: 11 Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
92 Infantry Brigade: 12 Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
92 Infantry Brigade: Brigade Supply Officer (1916 Jan).
93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
93 Infantry Brigade: 15 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment (1914 Aug - 1916 Mar).
93 Infantry Brigade: 16 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
93 Infantry Brigade: 18 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
93 Infantry Brigade: 18 Battalion Durham Light Infantry (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
94 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
94 Infantry Brigade: 11 Battalion East Lancashire Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
94 Infantry Brigade: 12 Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
94 Infantry Brigade: 13 Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb).
94 Infantry Brigade: 14 Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment (1915 Dec - 1916 Feb)
Date: 1914 Aug 1 - 1916 Mar 31


Searching for wo95 93 Infantry Brigade gets

93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters. (Described at item level)

Reference: WO 95/2359/1
Description:
93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters.
Date: 1916 Mar 1 - 1916 July 31

Reference: WO 95/2359/2
Description:
93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters.
Date: 1916 Aug 1 - 1916 Dec 31

Reference: WO 95/2359
Description:
93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters. (Described at item level)
Date: 1916 Mar 1 - 1917 May 31

Reference: WO 95/2360
Description:
93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters. (Described at item level)
Date: 1917 June 1 - 1919 Feb 28

Reference: WO 95/2361
Description:
93 Infantry Brigade (Described at item level)
Date: 1916 Mar 1 - 1919 Feb 28

Reference: WO 95/2362
Description:
93 Infantry Brigade (Described at item level)
Date: 1916 Mar 1 - 1918 Feb 28


NB wo95 is TNA's code for WW1 army war diaries
Adding this to the search terms cuts out a lot of noise







For war diaries, I can go to:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=60779

then browse (in right column) for:
Regiment : Various (Infantry Brigades, 31st Division)
Division : 31st Division
and get hits for:

Piece 2356/1-5: 92 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1916 Mar - 1919 Apr)
Piece 2358: 92 Infantry Brigade (1916 - 1919)
Piece 2359/1-4: 93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1916 Mar - 1917 May)
Piece 2360/1-5: 93 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1917 Jun - 1919 Feb)
Piece 2361: 93 Infantry Brigade (1916 - 1919)
Piece 2362: 93 Infantry Brigade (1916 - 1918)
Piece 2363/1-5: 94 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1916 Mar - 1917 Jun)
Piece 2364/1: 94 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1917 Jul - 1919 May)

The middle 4 hits are your guy's brigade.

I don't have a sub, so can't check, but it's possible the DLI war diaries from March 1916 (along with the West Yorks bns - sometimes The Prince of Wales’s Own West Yorkshire Regiment) are bound together, and going past the end (or beginning) of the 93 bde will get these too.

Incidentally, if you don't have a sub, take out a free membership with Ancestry - not their one-time fortnight's free trial - and sign up for their newsletter/announcements.
That way you'll get notice if they have a freebie on military records, say, around Nov 11.

I've only downloaded one British bde's war diaries, viz 150th bde in 50 div '
It ran from 7/1915 andwas 1082 pages I was hard pressed to exceed 75 pages per hour.

Per his army record, he was in the 18th Battalion.

History of their action here:

http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=523

In 1918 they were in the Battle of St Quentin (21-23 March) , the Battle of Bapaume (24-25 March), and the First Battle of Arras (28 March). Then in Flanders they were in some of the Battles of the Lys (7-29 April), during which gas was used.


If you scroll well down on that link, there's an account of action at Vieux Berquin on 27th June, in which the 18th were involved.


No mention at all of Thiepval, on that page , apart from the fact that a couple of people who died are named on the Thiepval Memorial.

Don't know if you have this info, but his record has him Home from 1-12-17 to
31-3-18 ..Suffered shot gun wound to hand 27-11-17
Back in France from 1-4-18 to 6-2-19.
Your heading Thiepval 27-6-18- do you mean that was when he was gassed,as far as I can see there was no battle on that day
gassed in 1918 and rejoined Battalion 7-7-18

did he come from Malton

oops yes I see he did

The Regimental Records might be held at Durham Archives

http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/10563/Durham-Light-Infantry-Archives

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?
_p=1900&_q=Durham+light+infantry+Regimental+Diaries+

Follow the above link (both lines). Select the Battalion he served in & see if the diaries are online. If they aren’t, you may have to pay a researcher unless you can visit the relevant archive yourself.

He wouldn’t have been ‘important’ enough to be mentioned by name but the general details should be. It may only be that Co X in Y section of the Line came under gas attack with possibly the number of casualties & injured.

Am trying to discover more about the gas attack at Thiepval. I have the family records regarding his record during the war. He transferred from the Yorks& Lancs to the Durham Light Infantry.

Yes. George William Sellars. Durham Light Infantry. 245918. After being gassed so close to the end of WW1, he was an invalid, spending most of his time in bed, until his death in December 1920.

Would this be his death?

Deaths Dec 1920 (>99%)
SELLARS George W 22 Malton 9d 463

Ancestry have Regimental Diaries. If you can tell us which one he was in at the time, you can search those for the date.

what regiment and battalion was your uncle in. Do you mean he was gassed in 1918 and died in 1920

My great uncle George Sellars had survived until this point, relatively unscathed. Am trying to discover more about this gas attack which lead to his death in 1920. Please do any of you know more?