|
I was wondering if it is possible to obtain a Death Certificate issued in this country for an ancestor of mine who died in the Battle of Mametz Wood during WW1 (body not found) and is commemorated on a War Memorial in The Thiepval Memorial. I have obtained his details from the CWGC but was thinking of getting a "proper" Death Certificatae if this is at all possible.
|
|
You could try searching the British Army deaths (or similar wording) for the gro reference on this site or Findmypast.
Failing that you could apply to the GRO giving what ever details are on the Memorial. Tick the Death (overseas event) and also the box that says that you don't know the GRO reference
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
It probably won't give you any more info than is on the Memorial or other records ie missing, presumed killed in action, and the date.
How about downloading and printing off the Commemorative Certificate from the CWGC site?
|
|
Thank you for your reply. Yes I had suspected that I wouldn't be able to get any more information than I have already by applying for a Death Certificate. It was just a thought. I have already downloaded and printed the Commemorative Certificate from the CWGC
|
|
I've never seen a GRO d.cert from a WW1 war deaths register.
However, I don't think it would differ substantially from a GROS one.
There used to be an example of a page from the rego for the 11th bn Border Regt on the SP site, but I can't find it on the new SP site, so I retrieved the old one using the wayback machine.
http://tinyurl.com/jlzx9pb
The GRO, of course will digitally transfer the image of one entry from their rego onto the d.cert blank, rather than give you a whole rego page.
The GROS rego covers:
Scottish persons serving as Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned officers or Men in the Army (not officers) and Petty Officers or Men in the Royal Navy in World War I (1914-1918)
--------------
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-battles-of-the-somme-1916/the-capture-of-mametz-1-5-july-1916/
You give no hint of his unit in your post, so lets say he was in the 9th Northumberand Fusiliers, which was part of the 52 brigade in 17th division.
If you click on "ARMY" in the banner, then "The Regiments and Corps", then "The Infantry Regiments", then "Northumberand Fusiliers", you'll get a brief history of each battalion.
The relevant bit for this e.g. is:
9th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Newcastle in September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 52nd Brigade, 17th (Northern) Division.
Landed in France in July 1915.
and there's a link to 17th div at foot of page, which will give the units in the 3 bdes as well as the other units in the division.
Ancestry has the war diaries of most infantry bns online, and you can download them, a page at a time, to see what the unit was doing on a day by day basis.
Both the Ozzies and the Canadians have their WDs free online. Here's a few pages from 13th Can bn's WD for part of 9/1916 just to give you a taste:
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e044/e001087970.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e044/e001087971.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e044/e001087983.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e044/e001087984.jpg
etc.
|
|
He was in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers 14th battalion and died on the 9th July 1816
|
|
Sorry should have been "died 1916"
|
|
His name was Ellis Griffith (Private) Rank No 21330 (Royal Welsh Fusiliers) and as stated above died on the 9th Juy 1916
|
|
http://anws.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/anw/search2?coll_id=10559&inst_id=39&term=%25
(above Archives might be useful regarding the 14th)
Chris :)
|
|
One occassionally comes across trench map coordinates in war diaries.
Here's an example, locating 2 dressing stations in the last section:
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e061/e001503173.jpg
The classic form of a ref is:
Sheet number.Block of squares (LETTER).Square(#).Quadrant(letter).Easting(#).Northing(#)
butrather than deal with the 2 refs I've just cited, lets look at something of more interest to you; Go to:
http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm
In particular, Sheet 62d: http://lt1.mcmaster.ca/ww1/wrz4mp.php?grid=62d
and Sheet 57d: http://lt1.mcmaster.ca/ww1/wrz4mp.php?grid=57d
From the former, select:
PC0181WW1MAP 62d NE2 1:10,000 Albert - Bronfay Farm 1916/00
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A79554/-/collection
Mametz is in square F.5 in the NE corner of the map.
Usually, when 4 blocks of squares meet each other (as they do here, just below the centre of this map), there's a cap letter in each, identifying the block of 5 x 6 squares.
The squares are 1000 yds x 1000 yds, and are divided into quadrants labelled
a b
c d
So lets give the ref for the shrine, mentioned in:
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-battles-of-the-somme-1916/the-capture-of-mametz-1-5-july-1916/
It's in quadrant F.11.a, just S of Mametz. If you look at the square boundaries, you'll see there are tick marks on them, 10 per quadrant, so we just read off the easting as 3 and the northing as 6 to get:
Sheet 62d.F.11.a.2.6 [to 50 yds precision). The article says the an MG post there, which I would probably want to put a shell on, so for the RA I would want to be more precise, so for them:
Sheet 62d.F.11.a.28.60 [to 5 yds precision).
For Mametz Wood:
PC0165WW1MAP 57d SE4 1:10,000 Aveluy Wood - Caterpillar Valley 1916/00
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A69495/-/collection
The wood extends over much of Sheet 57d.X.24 and Sheet 57d.X.18, and starts over 1700 yds NNE of Mametz.
--------------------------
CWGC hit:
GRIFFITH, ELLIS
Rank: Private
Service No: 21330
Date of Death: 09/07/1916
Age: 18
Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers 14th Bn.
Panel Reference: Pier and Face 4 A.
Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Additional Information: Son of William and Anne Griffith, of Erw, Rhiw Pwllheli, Carnarvonshire.
|
|
Thank you Chris. The information regarding the archives in Bangor University sounds interesting. I will visit there in the New Year as it's only about 30 miles from where I live.
|
|
Even though the GRO now gives the mum's maiden surname on births, e.g.,
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
GRIFFITH, ELLIS PRICHARD Order
GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in PWLLHELI Volume 11B Page 365
which was only available for Anglesey previously via http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/
I find it easier to search on http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/
Marriages Mar 1896 (>99%)
GRIFFITH William Pwllheli 11b 534
Prichard Ann Pwllheli 11b 534
Roberts Evan Pwllheli 11b 534
Williams Jane Pwllheli 11b 534
Additionally, the last element of the local marr ref is usually an entry #, rather than a page #, so one knows who wed whom.
North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1896
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
GRIFFITH William PRICHARD Ann Dwyfor (Pwllheli), Civil Marriage Gwynedd (Caernarfon) DWY/16/E196
This could be a rego office marr, or a non-conformist marr.
Until 1898, only C of W (and jews, quakers and registrars) were authorized to keep official marr rego's, so a non-conformist marr would require a registrar to attend with his official marr rego for the couple to sign to complete the ceremony.
After 1898, non-conformists could apply to become persons authorized to keep official marr rego's (although the RCs chose not to apply until 1980-ish).
-------------
Even when only a local page # is given, e.g.,
North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1899
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
GRIFFITH William Match Possible Spouses Caernarfon, Civil Marriage Gwynedd (Caernarfon) CAE/45/17
Possible Spouses: Surname Forename Reference
EVANS Ann CAE/45/17
JONES Laura Ann CAE/45/17
WILLIAMS Thomas Robert CAE/45/17
It can sometimes resolve a GRO puzzle:
Marriages Dec 1899 (>99%)
Evans Ann Carnarvon 11b 805
Griffith William Carnarvon 11b 805
Griffiths Catherine Ellin Carnarvon 11b 805
Roberts Henry Carnarvon 11b 805
The local rego always has 2 entries per page.
The GRO had 4 entries per page until 1852q1, when they switched to 2 per page, but a GRO rego always starts at the top of the page at each quarter, so after a while, it's 50-50 as to whether the total # of marrs in that location in all the previous quarters was odd or even.
So the two sets of pages were misaligned here, and the missing local names are on an adjacent GRO page (uncommonly, they could even be in an adjacent quarter).
Marriages Dec 1899 (>99%)
Ellis Kate Carnarvon 11b 806
Griffiths Edwin John Carnarvon 11b 806
Jones Laura Ann Carnarvon 11b 806
Williams Thomas Robert Carnarvon 11b 806
|
