Military Chat

Hiya, I have this chap in my family tree.....he would be my great grandfather from Hull.

This is what I have for definite-

Frank Henry Simms

Born. 2nd June 1892 Swailes, County of Warwick

Married. March 8th 1914 to Matilda Eliassen in Hull, Yorkshire

Died. 25th August 1965 Hull, Yorkshire.

Now I would love to pin down for certain his military record for WW1.

I have narrowed it down to either-

Pte 28307 Frank Simms East Yorkshire Regiment

or

Pte 204826 Frank Simms Yorkshire Regiment

Sadly unlike my other great grandparents the records are insufficient to nail down with down 100% accuracy which one he is. If I was a gambling man i'd say the East Yorkshire Regiment would make logical sense BUT Frank's brother in law who was also in Hull served with the West Yorkshire Regiment so who can tell?

My best bet I suppose would be to track down his children who may have photos or even the original medals? The question is how would I do that?

Hence i've decided to renew my member for one further years to genesreunited to see if I can do this....

:-)

I guess my first port of call is to ascertain who are the children of Frank & Matilda Simms and then who are the grandchildren of their children.

Obviously, my grandad Harry Leonard Simms was the first born being born in 1914 and his first son Paul Simms was I believe his first born son but I have no clues from these sources so I need to track down other siblings of my grandfather...

Are you sure that one of these men could be your great grandfather?

I have found that most army records give the full name (including middle names). 70% of WW1 records were destroyed in a fire in WW2 so his records may not exist.

Kath. x

Harry Leonard Simms 1914 Hull
Alma Simms 1919 Hull?
Eva Simms 1924 Hull?
George L Simms 1921 Hull?
Harold Simms 1922 Hull?

31 results actually for Simms 1914 with a 10 year radius...

Births of children called Simms with mother's maiden name Eliassen:-

SIMMS ALMA 1919 — 1919 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS BETTY J 1930 — 1930 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS DENIS 1925 — 1925 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS FRANK 1927 — 1927 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS GEORGE L 1921 — 1921 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS JOHN S 1931 — 1931 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS VIOLET 1925 — 1925 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

There is also this birth with same mother's maiden name but in a different area:-

SIMMS GEORGE W 1921 — 1921 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, England

EDIT - I have just found more births where the mother's maiden name is spelt differently. Will get them in a minute.

Here they are:-

SIMMS HARRY L 1915 — 1915 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS PHILIP G 1928 — 1928 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

Kath. x

Matilda must be her middle name. The marriage gives her name as Amanda M. Eliassen.

Kath. x

The Harold Simms born 1922 and Eva Simms born 1924 that you mention have mother's maiden name Crawford so not your grandad's siblings.

Kath. x

The Elisassen side is thoroughly researched, Frank Henry Simms's brother-in-law was George Eliassen who served with the West Yorkshire Regiment.

Yeah it has to be one of the above, Frank dropped his middle name, AND his brother-in-law wasn't even called George! His name was Odin Eliassen lol :-)

Man, how confusing my ancestors have made my family tree!

I figure I know why my great grandfather dropped his middle name 'Henry'.

At any rate i've just bombed about 50 Simms names in Hull so I will see if that reveals any results.

Births of children called Simms with mother's maiden name Eliassen:-

SIMMS ALMA 1919 — 1919 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS BETTY J 1930 — 1930 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS DENIS 1925 — 1925 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS FRANK 1927 — 1927 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS GEORGE L 1921 — 1921 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS JOHN S 1931 — 1931 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS VIOLET 1925 — 1925 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

There is also this birth with same mother's maiden name but in a different area:-

SIMMS GEORGE W 1921 — 1921 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, England

EDIT - I have just found more births where the mother's maiden name is spelt differently. Will get them in a minute.

Here they are:-

SIMMS HARRY L 1915 — 1915 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

SIMMS PHILIP G 1928 — 1928 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

Kath. x



This is very helpful with this line of research thank you :-)

KathleenBell this result is my grandfather-

SIMMS HARRY L 1915 — 1915 England & Wales births 1837-2006 Hull, Yorkshire, England

Yes, I thought so Laird but in the index his mother's maiden name is transcribed as Eliasen with one "s" which is why it didn't come up at first.

Kath. x

One possible lead tonight......discovered another person who is also a great grand child of Frank Henry Simms. Hopefully they can ask their parents for information and see if they can offer any clues.

Not sure why you think he dropped his middle name?:

1939:
Household 88 Park Street , Kingston-upon-Hull C.B., Yorkshire (East Riding), England

Frank H Simms 02 Jun 1892 Male Carpet Planner Married 331 6
Amanda M Simms 10 Nov 1892 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Harry W Simms 04 Dec 1914 Male Upholsterer Ru 72 Single
Reginald Simms 29 Feb 1916 Male Cabinet Maker Single
Vera M Simms 21 Sep 1917 Female Kitchen Hand Cafe Single
+ 2 closed records here
----------------------------------------------

Hull Daily Mail - Tuesday 13 August 1940

Assault On Officer
Frank Henry Simms of Park Street, Hull was fined £8 for assaulting a police office who was interviewing his wife about a light that had been seen from her back door. PC Johnson said Simms shouted 'Get out or I'll put you out' and flung open the back door, in so doing repeating the offence his wife had committed. For this Macdonald fined Simms £3.
PC Johnson then said he was shown to the front door and when he was going out Simms struck him on the back.
Simms wife, Amanda Simms, was fined £3 for showing a light.
---------------------------------

There is also an article in the Hull Daily Mail - Monday 02 April 1945 that lists some of Frank's children and has photos of 6 of them-Peter, Jean, Denis, Alma, George and Vera. It says there are 13 children and 11 are serving in the war effort.

It states Peter has a twin sister, Joan. It's probably easier if I just send you the article!

EDIT: Article sent!

AustinQ that's brilliant thanks for sharing. 13 children means lots of leads.

Why do I think he dropped Henry?

Two reasons, it was not uncommon for soldiers to lie about their age and name. Frank middle name could have led to questions about his parentage he would prefer to to answer as he was illegitimate. His dad was likely Henry Ivins of Brailes a Baker by trade. This is further supported by the fact that Frank lists his father on his wedding license as a Baker by trade but states his father was Harry Simms who was infact a Shepherd (later a Groom) and very unlikely to be Frank father as he was already married and living about 100 miles away from Franks mother.

Other reason, Franks brother-in-law Odin changed his name to George when he signed up for service in the great war. So it is very likely that my great grandfather either is-

Frank Simms Serving with the East Yorkshire Regiment

Or

Frank Simms Yorkshire Regiment

Both on the medal rolls but no additional to confirm.

The Frank Henry Simms that do appear on the medal roll records all proved inconclusive.

This made me smile:-

Hull Daily Mail - Thursday 10 November 1949

BIRTHDAY GREETINGS

SIMMS- Amanda Matilda (Dolly) Loving Birthday Greetings to the best wife and mother in the world, from husband Frank and all their chicks.

and directly underneath:

SIMMS- Happy Birthday, mother dear, All our love- Peter, Audrey, Barbara and Robina

Yes that is a lovely snippet from the Hull Daily Mail, thanks for sharing it. I think that one was brought to my attention previously on a different thread.

Gosh 13 kids!

I still have about 150 Simms people to e-mail via genesreunited related to the Hull area which sounds about right if Frank Henry had 13 children. There must be about 100 great grandchildren at a wild guestimate :-)

Still it would be nice to get to the bottom of this little mystery.

Incidentally yes a good percentage of the WW1 records were destroyed HOWEVER the Medal Rolls were not so these are 100% intact but without having access to the military records its difficult to connect a medal roll recipients.

Ideally an old photo of Frank Henry in uniform or even better locating a family member who still has his medals will resolve this very quickly......sadly many families part with medals not attaching much sentimental value to them or to fund the next holiday in the sun. So a photo would solve it.

I have resolved the military sides for my other 3 great granddads......Frank Henry is the elusive mystery so much info on the man but still nothing to clinch precisely who he was in ww1.