Military Chat

Thanks for the update, Christine - I was pretty sure from the records I posted that it was just a coincidence.

Why not just go to Mauritius anyways? ;-)

We have some very unexplained appearances in our family - sometimes they're throwbacks from several generations earlier.

Hello again everyone!

At last the GRO Certificate arrived in my letterbox today - and it shows that Eliza Hines, a widow, married a Sergeant Isaac Holmes in Mauritius in 1821. For some reason it was not registered in the GRO document until 1825, which proved to be a red herring as that was the same year my Great-Great-Grandmother Eliza Hines married my Great-Great-Grandfather Andrew Joiner in London, and I thought the two might have been the same marriage registered in two different places.

The fact that a photo I have of Eliza's daughter (my Great-Grandmother) shows her as appearing to have African genes was an added incentive for me to find her mother had originated in Mauritius, and would have been a wonderful twist in my Family Tree.

However I shall have to find a different explanation for her appearance now - and forget about the possibility of a holiday in Mauritius with recently discovered relations!!!

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to my search for answers - this Forum is amazing.

Let me know if you’re ever in New Zealand – I owe you all a cuppa!

Cheers
Christine

Given that Andrew and Eliza seem to have had two sons named Daniel, it seems like a good possibility. Maybe the c1794 Daniel was a brother to Andrew?

The two probable sons:

Name: Daniel George Joiner
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 17 Jan 1830
Father's name: Andrew Joiner
Mother's name: Eliza Joiner
Parish or Poor Law Union: Deptford St Paul
Borough: Lewisham
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father a mariner. Queen St. Born 18th Dec 1829

Name: Daniel James Joiner
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 28 Dec 1834
Father's name: Andrew Joiner
Mother's name: Eliza Joiner
Parish or Poor Law Union: Deptford St Paul
Borough: Lewisham
Register Type: Parish Registers

Queen's St. Father a mariner. Born 20th Dec 1833 (originally written 1834, but 4 has been overwritten with a 3.

I wonder if this man is connected - occupation: Master Mariner (there is something else written against this on the image, but I can't make it out). In 1861 he is a civil pensioner:

Name:Daniel Joiner
Age:57
Estimated birth year:abt 1794
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Mary A Joiner
Gender:Male
Where born:Sheerness, Kent, England
Civil Parish:Deptford St Paul

Thank you Kucinta! That is definitely my Great-Great-Grandfather Andrew Joiner, and the youngest daughter Maria in that 1851 Census record is my Great-Grandmother whose unusual appearance has set me off on this quest.

I am going to re-read all this information today and add it to the bigger picture I'm gradually building with the help of all you amazing people on this site! Thank you again. I'll be back.......!!

If Eliza Hines was born in Essex, you might need to use the following site to search for a baptismal record for her, as a lot of the Essex records aren't availible on free sites.

http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/EssexAncestors.aspx

but you would need to pay for a subscription of some sort.

If either or both Andrew and Eliza came from seafaring families or lived in ports, which often had a higher incidence of 'foreign' inhabitants, 'foreign' blood may have entered the families prior to Andrew and Eliza's generation, and could be from either side, should the Mauritius connection not pan out as an explanation for your great grandmother's physical appearance.

When/where was your Andrew Joiner born?

There are merchant seaman records for this man born Sheerness(Shellness):

First name(s) ANDREW
Last name Joiner
Age -
Birth year 1798
Birth day 11
Birth month 10
Birth place Shellness
Birth county Kent
Place SHELLNESS
Discharge number -
Identity certificate number -
Card type -
Date range 1845-1854
Series BT113
Piece number 3
Record set Merchant Navy Seamen

Birth year looks like 1794 rather than 1798 on the image (which I have pmed to you). Went to sea as a boy in 1806, served 22 years in the royal navy (but says no foreign service) , resided at Bromley when not employed. Was over 5ft 10in with dk brown hair, blue eyes and a sallow complexion.

Ticker number 7864

EDIT: is this 'your' Andrew and Eliza in 1851, with Andrew born Sheerness, and resident Bromley? Seems to tally very well with the sailor above.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Prospect Place, Bromley Saint Leonard, Poplar, Middlesex, England<<<<<<<<

Andrew Joiner Head Married Male 54 1797 Laborer Sheerness, Kent, England<<<<<<<<<
Eliza Joiner Wife Married Female 45 1806 Errand Boy Grays, Essex, England
James Joiner Son - Male 13 1838 - Deptford, Kent, England
Edward Joiner Son - Male 10 1841 Scholar Deptford, Kent, England
Elizabeth Joiner Daughter - Female 8 1843 Scholar Bromley, Middlesex, England
Maria Joiner Daughter - Female 3 1848 Scholar Bromley, Middlesex, England

Nothing for that period for Andrew Joiner in

British Royal Marines, Marriage Registers 1813-1920

This is a real mystery! But hopefully it will be resolved within 2 weeks when I receive the GRO Overseas Marriage Certificate which I have just sent off for. I hadn't seen the Mariner info - my Great-Grandmother (Andrew and Eliza's daughter Maria) was born in 1847 and by then he was a Labourer - I didn't look back further than that. I had been looking for a record of Andrew being in the Army and couldn't find anything. But the fact that he says he was a Mariner puts another piece of the puzzle in place. There is the possibility that Mariners - or Marines - were tied in with the Army somehow in those days. The GRO Chaplain's Marriage Return says it was an Army Marriage. It's all very exciting for me - and I can't thank you all enough for your input into getting to the bottom of this. I will let you know what the Certificate says - I don't know why they can't email it, but the NZ Post will be delighted to have a letter to deliver!!

Looking at the children's baptisms, Andrew is shown as a Mariner from 1827 to until 1840 in Deptford; in 1845 his daughter Elizabeth Sarah was baptised in Tower Hamlets and he is a labourer.

Maybe if the Mauritius marriage did take place, he was there as sailor and not a soldier.

Sorry, I'm not convinced!

I did a search on FindMyPast of British Nationals Armed Forces Marriages 1796-2005 (which covers the GRO Chaplains Returns) for all marriages in Mauritius in 1825.

It fetches up 30 names, one of which is Eliza Hines - but no Andrew Joiner:

First name(s) Last name Marriage year Marriage place Country Spouse's first name(s)

MARY BANBURY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ARMANDE EMILY BIDARD 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ROBERT SHAW BROWNRIGG 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ANNE CALLOWAY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JEMIMA CALLOWAY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
MARY CALLOWAY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JAMES DAVIS 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
BRUCE HAY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ANN HILL 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
** ELIZA HINES 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ISSAC HOLMES 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ANNE HOLT 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
MARIA KENT 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
MARGARET KING 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
EDWARD WILLIAM H LOWE 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
SARAH MESSENGER 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JOHN MONTGOMERY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ROBERT PEARCE 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JAMES POLLITT 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JOHN RACKHAM 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
WILLIAM RACKHAM 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JAMES SILVERTHORNE 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ANN SPANNER 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
RUTH SUNDERLAND 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
THOMAS TOVEY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
THOMAS TOVEY 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
SARAH WALES 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JAMES WESTALL 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
JOSEPH WILLIAMS 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —
ANNE WINDER 1825 MAURITIUS MAURITIUS —

Don't know if there were two Thomas Toveys or if he married twice.

I've also searched the same record set with the surname Joiner and no year and place - no Andrew. I also searched for any Andrew (no surname) marrying in Mauritius - only one was a chap in 1903.

If they did marry first in Mauritius I'd have expected an entry for Andrew.

I'm not seeing any army records for Andrew Joiner (doesn't mean that there wasn't one). Do you know for certain that he was in the army? What do you know about him?

Thank you mgnv - I will pursue that Chaplains Return - I just need to sit down and read the lengthy reply I got, redirecting me to other places.

Your theory, and knowledge of Army personnel marrying twice, gives me hope that I may be on the right track.

I'll keep you posted!

MC - I have seen several army marrs where the couple married twice.

I don't know the circumstances, but my guess is the soldier wed without the permission of his commanding officer (as required by the King's Regulations). The marr would still be valid, but he might face some discipline from the army, and she wouldn't qualify for pension or housing benefits, so they would remarry with the CO's permission to fix this - well, that's my guess.

I think you should purchase the Chaplin's return from the GRO - if my guess is correct, it should show a Dec 1825 date.

Thanks for that link Marie Celeste - as I said, my thought was that they initially married in Mauritius, possibly because he couldn't take her back to England unless they were married, and then had another ceremony in London, maybe for Andrew's family's benefit? I noticed that the 2 witnesses to the London marriage were both Joiners. Even though the Certificate says Eliza was a Spinster from that Parish, none of her family were witnesses.

My email to GRO re the marriage record drew a very lengthy automated response pointing me in other directions. I need to digest that to see if I can get any further with that.

I'd say it was certainly possible.

But, I can't see Eliza and Andrew Joiner marrying in Mauritius when they signed (or marked) the register at St Nicholas, Deptford.

See image on this link:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/20802190

PS: After visiting the link to the GRO records, I see that they only hold records from 1837, and I need 1825. I have emailed the GRO Certificates people and asked if there's any way I can access information from 1825, so fingers crossed. But I'm still interested in opinions on whether this kind of marriage is thought to have been likely.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to try and answer my questions. Here's a bit more background.

I am in New Zealand and trying to trace my ancestors back in England. My Great-Great-Grandfather, Andrew Joiner, is recorded as having married Eliza Hines on 27 Nov 1825, in Deptford, London.

On the same page (in Genes Reunited records) there is also a marriage record for Eliza Hines in Mauritius, also in 1825. I looked at that record, and it is from the GRO Chaplains Returns marriages, for Eliza Hines, 1825, a British Army Marriage in Mauritius. Recorded in the GRO Register on Page Number 30, Volume Page 485. It doesn't say who she married.

The reason I'm interested in the possible Mauritius connection, is because I have a photo of her daughter (my Great-Grandmother who emigrated to NZ in 1875), and she doesn't look like an Englishwoman. Her facial features suggest she could have the East African / Malagasy background of people who lived in Mauritius at that time. Which would probably make her descended from a slave. Also, I can't find a Birth record for Eliza Hines in England. The 1851 Census says she was born in Essex in 1806, but it also says she was an Errand Boy so I'm assuming that info should belong on the next line for her 13 year-old son.

Thanks for the link to the GRO Office - I will see if I can get a copy of that Marriage Certificate with more information on it. But also I wondered about the likelihood of a British soldier marrying a local in Mauritius in 1825 and bringing her back to England.

I'm assuming that if this Eliza Hines is my Gt-Gt-Grandmother, that once they got back to England after marrying in Mauritius, they registered the marriage again in London. A lot of assumptions, I know, but it makes for a pretty interesting DNA for my family if my theory is true!!!

Potty -Re "That would mean that a marriage in 1825 would be Regimental record and not one held by the GRO"

I'ld agree that it would make it a regimental record, but I'm puzzled by your statement that this is not one held by the GRO, when you've just (correctly) stated in your previous sentence the GRO holds such records dating back to 1761.

=======================

For a statement of what the GRO holds, see the appendix in:
http://tinyurl.com/lrk36xp

Christine, if you post some details, maybe somebody could help, eg her name and the date of the marriage and which site you found the record.

Not sure about Mauritius but it wasn't unusual for soldiers' families to accompany them abroad. She could have been the daughter of a soldier or even the widow of one.

Are you sure it is GRO register entry you have found, This is what the GRO site says:

Q1. What records are held for overseas births, marriages and deaths?
•Births, marriages and deaths registered by the British Forces and the British Consul or High Commission in the country where they took place, from 1849.
•Deaths that occurred in the Boer War and both World Wars.
•British Army Regimental records of births, baptisms and marriages dating back to 1761.

That would mean that a marriage in 1825 would be Regimental record and not one held by the GRO.