Military Chat

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/15236642

My Grandfather has a pick and rifle insignia on his collar (see link) . Any idea what it means anyone ? (I have some) . I'd like to hear what others think or know about that .

I'd be grateful for opinions or knowledge from anyone

Regards Paul

I think it means he was a Pioneer and (I may be wrong) but I don't think it was regiment specific.

Here's example for sale:

http://www.sofmilitary.co.uk/ww1-brass-pioneer-collar-badges-product,17550

Do you happen to know his service number?

I think MarieCeleste is right. If you look at this link and scroll about two thirds down the page you will see a similar badge: (it says under your photo that Sgt. Tovey was in the Gloucesters)-

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/sale_british_army_cap_badges/3_infantry_english_regiment.htm

Kath. x

Dear Marie & Kath

No I do not know his service number . I know he was a Sgt in the Gloucesters because it's on his marriage certificate of 1918 . He was at Whittle/Writtle Camp at the time

I too thought the collar insignia meant that he was assigned at some point to part of the Gloucesters that converted part of a battalion to pioneers .

Kath , yeah agreed . And, thanks for that page . It's clearly there for sure ..

Thankyou both for your time ..

Paul

Paul, the only reason I asked for his service number was to find his medal card for you (if he was entitled).

This is the only Sidney/Sydney Tovey in the Gloucesters:

WWI Medal Index Cards
Name: Sidney A Tovey
Regiment or Corps: Gloucestershire Regiment
Regimental Number: 5134, 266845, 40448

This is the medal roll for the same man:

WWI Service Medal and Award Rolls
Name: Sidney Arthur Tovey
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Private
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps: Gloucestershire Regiment
Regimental Number: 40448
Previous Units: 1/6th Bn. Glouc. R. 5134TF Pte., 8th Glouc. R. 266845.

(On the same page are the following Toveys - Frederick; George R.R.; Gilbert; Henry George; Leonard, all in the Gloucesters).

Now, the above man has the middle name Arthur, plus he was a private - not a sergeant. However, if this is him then he may have been at the time of marriage an acting sergeant so that may not have been recorded on his medal card/rolls as it wasn't a permanent rank. But what about that middle name?

There are medal cards for two other Sidney Toveys:

This one was a private, then a corporal
Name: Sidney Tovey
Regiment or Corps: Worcestershire Regiment
Regimental Number: 11697, 5239242

This one also a private
Name: Sidney Tovey
Regiment or Corps: Welsh Regiment, Leicestershire Regiment
Regimental Number: 30357, 43210

Also a Sidney F in the Ordnance Corps and a Sidney H in the Dorsets

Wow ... You have done some work there .. How very kind of you MarieCeleste !

May I wish that your ship populates and the mystery is solved and food is eaten :-) - please invite me :)))

Mind you we are all in the same boat :-) Pardon my smiles ..

In all honesty - I do not know whether that is him MC..

His brother Fred enlisted (I have the enlistment doc) aged 27 neary 28 from the known Bedminster address where my birth father's family lived for about 85 years (4 Brighton Terrace). Before that everyone was a miner etc ..

Fred aged 27 thus joined the Gloucesters and for certain fought at Passchendale and was wounded there but there's no record of that wounding other than oral testimony.

You know how people big themselves up .. We all do it and it causes seriously mad feather pulling goosechases to later family historians ..

As for Sgt Sydney Tovey. My birth grandfather who I knew for a short period. He certainly was a Tramways League Footballer after WW1 ! I think he captained it at times ... Good forward striker too !

Jeese I have found a lot of 1920's references in the Bristol press for that. I hate football though (what it's become) but now I love it as long as I am watching my grandfather in my imagination :))

But the middle name "Arthur" (for now) does not fit . I think "Harold" may have been a middle name of Sydney's but so many times in family history do people play around with names and ages and status-terms ..

I'll marinate on the information you have kindly de-celested for me . I think it is interesting that the Gloucesters formed pioneer sections from their battalions and that some of the number changes may reflect that ... Oh god that means more research ! More feather pulling goosechases ... Some of it is such fun though ..

May I thank you again for being attentive and helpful ..

I saw that medal card for Sidney A Tovey, but wondered if this was the birth for the that Sidney:

Births Jun 1888 TOVEY Sidney Arthur Faringdon 2c 2_7

Bedminster births:

Births Sep 1893 Tovey Sidney Bedminster 5c 666

Births Sep 1896 Tovey Sidney Harold Bedminster 5c 638


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census

4, Brighton Terrace, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England<<<<<<<<<<


Philip Tovey Head Married Male 58 1843 Builders Laborer Bedminster, Somerset, England
Elizabeth Tovey Wife Married Female 51 1850 - Wells, Somerset, England
Ellen Tovey Daughter Single Female 27 1874 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Emily Tovey Daughter Single Female 21 1880 Brush Maker Bedminster, Somerset, England
Thomas Tovey Son Single Male 16 1885 Brick Maker Bedminster, Somerset, England
John Tovey Son Single Male 15 1886 Brick Maker Bedminster, Somerset, England
Frederick Tovey Son Single Male 12 1889 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Charles Tovey Son Single Male 10 1891 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Sidney Tovey Son Single Male 7 1894 - Bedminster, Somerset, England<<<<<<<<<<<<

Again in 1911.

Father Philip has a double entry in the 1911 census, here with the family:


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census

4 Brighton Terrace Bedminster, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England

Philip Tovey Head Married Male 68 1843 Bedminster Bristol Road Maker <<<<<<
Elizabeth Tovey Wife Married Female 64 1847 Wells Somerset Charwoman
John Tovey Son Single Male 25 1886 Bedminster Bristol Brickmaker
Charlie Tovey Son Single Male 20 1891 Bedminster Bristol Brickmaker
Fredrick Tovey Son Single Male 22 1889 Bedminster Bristol Masons Labourer
Sidney Tovey Son Single Male 17 1894 Bedminster Bristol Errand Boy <<<<<<<<<<
Ellen Tovey Daughter Single Female 37 1874 Bedminster Bristol Brushmaker
Emily Tovey Daughter Single Female 31 1880 Bedminster Bristol Brushmaker
Harry Tovey Grandson - Male 2 1909 Stapleton Bristol

and also here as a patient, going by the address, I assume in the BRI (Bristol Royal Infirmary)


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census


First name(s) Philip<<<<<<<<<
Last name Tovey<<<<<<<<<<
Relationship to household head Patient
Marital condition Married
Gender Male
Age 68<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth year 1843
Birth place Somerset Bristol
Occupation Labourer Road Man<<<<<<<<<<<
Address Lower Maudlin St Bristol
Parish Bristol
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Registration district Bristol
Registration district number 319
Subdistrict Bristol Central
Subdistrict number 2
Enumeration district 5
Piece number 14866
Piece Number Suffix -
Schedule number 349
Schedule Suffix -
Census reference RG14PN14866 RG78PN902 RD319 SD2 ED5 SN349

I suspect this is the Sidney Arthur Tovey I posted earlier, as Lechlade comes under Faringdon R D, and Lechlade comes under Gloucestershire at least some of the time...

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Royal Oak Lechlade Gloucestershire, Lechlade, Berkshire, England

William Tovey Head Married Male 62 1849 Lechlade Glos Beer Retailer
Martha Tovey Wife Married Female 58 1853 Lechlade Glos -
Lillie Tovey Daughter Single Female 26 1885 Lechlade Glos Housemaid Domestic
Frederick Tovey Son Single Male 24 1887 Lechlade Glos Coachman Doemstic
Sidney Tovey Son Single Male 23 1888 Lechlade Glos Groom Domestic <<<<<<<<<<<
Florence Tovey Daughter Single Female 19 1892 Lechlade Glos Dressmaker
Annie Tovey Daughter Single Female 16 1895 Lechlade Glos

Yesss Kucinta there's Tovey's about for sure ... Quite a few wangling about with names and years ...And lots of Sidney goosechases .. Goosechase-Tovey is what I am actually searching for evidently :-)

I am inclined to think though Sidney "Harold" Tovey (4 Brighton Terrace) is my Sidney Tovey grandfather with a birth year of 1894. I've never seen a Birth cert yet though. He was : "23"years old on the original marriage cert. in 1918 (1st quarter) - which has some feint military printed stampings on the rear of it .. I photographed them with his daughter present. He was at Writtle Camp in Chelmsford when he got married.

That's him too as you point out on the 1911 census (aged 17) but the birth year 1894 does not compute with his 1918 Marriage certificate age of 23 unless he is actually 24 later in that year . That seems likely though doesn't it ?

As for Philip - he is now seen clearly to be swanning about ... Thus the goosechase swan gene is strong in the Tovey's :-)

Thankyou for your kind help... Paul ..

Lower Maudlin Street - ref :

I think that was most likely an eye hospital (mainly) in 1911 ...

There is a Sidney Harold Tovey birth in Bedminster reg district that I posted earlier, but it's 1896:

Births Sep 1896 Tovey Sidney Harold Bedminster 5c 638

However that is a different child/family:

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census

34, Vivian Street, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England


Edwin Tovey Head Married Male 49 1852 Chair Maker Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Bessie Tovey Wife Married Female 46 1855 - Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Ellen Beatrice Tovey Daughter Single Female 19 1882 Dress Maker Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Mabel Gertrude Tovey Daughter Single Female 18 1883 Cigar Maker Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Sidney Harold Tovey Son Single Male 4 1897 - Bristol, Gloucestershire, England<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Still in the same Bedminster location in 1911:


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census

34 Vivian Street Windmill Hill Bedminster Bristol, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England

Edwin Tovey Head Married Male 59 1852 Bedminster Bristol Chairmaker And Upholsterer
Bessie Tovey Wife Married Female 56 1855 Tiverton Devon -
Sydney Harold Tovey Son - Male 14 1897 Bedminster Bristol Office Boy <<<<<
Edna Way Tovey Granddaughter - Female 4 1907 Bedminster Bristol

Yes I know about that Sydney Harold Tovey (1896) - because in looking for a birth of Sydney Tovey I noted there's nothing in 1894 or 1895 in Bristol at all ... Weird ... It could be he was not registered... Which foxes me because I am after Philip's wife's maiden name (it's supposed to be Gardener or Gardner ) to finally nail down the marriage cert ... To prove who his father was ..

I am wondering whether or not I have discovered another lot of family that has an aversion to creating records about themselves sometimes.

Regards Paul

You could always send for the birth cert of a sibling close in age, if you can identify one, to get mother's maiden name

However, given that they were married 38 years in census1911, then the most likely marriage would seem to be this one, which I'm sure you've seen already but of course, no Gardner name involved:

Marriages Mar 1873
DENNING Silas Clifton 6a 204
RITCHINGS Sarah Jane Clifton 6a 204
Stone Elizabeth Clifton 6a 204 <<<<<<
Tovey Philip Clifton 6a 204 <<<<<<<


I wondered if perhaps Elizabeth was a widow, and it seems I was right: hadn't expected Philip to also be a widower.


First name(s) Philip<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Tovey<<<<<<<<<<
Sex Male
Marital status Widowed
Marriage year 1873
Marriage date 24 Mar 1873
Marriage place Bristol, St Jude, Gloucestershire, England
Father's first name(s) John<<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's last name Tovey<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's last name Stone<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's sex Female
Spouse marital status Widowed<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's father's first name(s) John<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's father's last name Gardiner<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Place Bristol, St Jude
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Marriage Index 1644-1939

Elizabeth's first marriage????

First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Gardner
Sex Female
Marital status Single
Marriage year 1870
Marriage date 11 Jul 1870
Marriage place Bedminster, St John, Somersetshire, England
Father's first name(s) John<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's last name Gardner<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's first name(s) Francis
Spouse's last name Stone
Spouse's sex Male
Spouse marital status Single
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Stone
Place Bedminster, St John
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Marriage Index 1644-1939

Possible death of first husband Francis?

Deaths Dec 1871 Stone Francis Henry 21 Bedminster 5c 512

EDIT:

the young couple in census 1871:


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Victoria Road Albert Place, Bedminster, Somerset, England

Francis Stone Head - Male 20 1851 - Somerset, England (image says labourer, brickyard , born Bristol)

Elizabeth Stone Wife - Female 20 1851 - Somerset, England (image says born Wells)

Baptism of Philip Tovey c1843 Bedminster Bristol, with father named John Tovey as per his marriage to Elizabeth in 1873:

First name(s) Philip
Last name Tovey
Sex Male
Baptism year 1843
Baptism date 26 Feb 1843
Baptism place Bedminster, St John, Somersetshire, England
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Tovey
Mother's first name Caroline
Mother's last name Tovey
Place Bedminster, St John
Town Bristol
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Baptism Index 1660-1914
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Census 1851:

Age for Philip a bit out (though I suppose we don't know how old he was at baptism), with parents named John and Caroline.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

West Bank Side, West Street, Bedminster, Somerset, England<<<<<

John Tovey Head Married Male 51 1800 Coal Miner Bedminster, Somerset, England<<<<<<<<<<<
Caroline Tovey Wife Married Female 50 1801 - Bedminster, Somerset, England <<<<
Joseph Tovey Son Unmarried Male 18 1833 Coal Miner Bedminster, Somerset, England
Eliza Tovey Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1835 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Caroline Tovey Daughter Unmarried Female 14 1837 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Philip Tovey Son Unmarried Male 10 1841 - Bedminster, Somerset, England <<<<<
Thomas Tovey Son - Male 7 1844 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Emma Tovey Daughter - Female 3 1848 - Bedminster, Somerset, England
Sarah Vining Lodger Unmarried Female 20 1831 Pauper Bristol, Gloucestershire, England

Is this a possible first marriage for Philip Tovey? He was a widower when he married Elizabeth Stone nee Gardiner in 1873:

First name(s) Philip<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Tovey<<<<<<<<<<<
Sex Male
Marital status Single
Marriage year 1864
Marriage date 01 Feb 1864
Marriage place Bristol, St Jude, Gloucestershire, England
Father's first name(s) John<<<<<<<<<<
Father's last name Tovey<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's first name(s) Mary Ann
Spouse's last name Webster
Spouse's sex Female
Spouse marital status Single
Spouse's father's first name(s) John
Spouse's father's last name Webster
Place Bristol, St Jude
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Marriage Index 1644-1939

Death of the bride?

Deaths Mar 1872 Tovey Mary Ann 26 Bedminster 5c 525

Philip with Mary Ann in census 1871:


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

West Street, Bedminster, Somerset, England<<<<<<<<<<<

Phillip Tovey Head - Male 30 1841 - Somerset, England (Coal miner born Bristol)
Mary A Tovey Wife - Female 27 1844 - Somerset, England (Tailoress born Bristol)
Rose A Tovey Daughter - Female 5 1866 - Somerset, England
Lousia Tovey Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Somerset, England

Daughters also dittoed as born Bristol.

The family in 1881,still in West Street, with daur Louisa from the first marriage Think Philip should be 39, not 59!!. Have no idea where son Albert was in the 1871:


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

21, West Street, Bedminster, Somerset, England

Philip Tovey Head Married Male 59 1822 Coal Miner Bedminster, Somerset, England
Elizabeth Tovey Wife Married Female 32 1849 Laundress Wells, Somerset, England
Albert Tovey Son Single Male 18 1863 Coal Miner Bedminster, Somerset, England
Louisa Tovey Daughter Single Female 12 1869 Scholar Bedminster, Somerset, England
Ellen Tovey Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Bedminster, Somerset, England
Philip Tovey Son Single Male 10 1871 Scholar Bedminster, Somerset, England
Jane Tovey Daughter Single Female 4 1877 Scholar Bedminster, Somerset, England
Emily Tovey Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - Bedminster, Somerset, England

EDIT: Seems little Albert was with his Webster grandparents in 1871, also in West Street:


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

West Street, Bedminster, Somerset, England

John Webster Head - Male 66 1805 - Somerset, England
Elizabeth Webster Wife - Female 65 1806 - Somerset, England
Albert Tovey Grandson - Male 8 1863 - Somerset, England

Baptisms for Louisa and 'Rose'


First name(s) Louisa
Last name Tovey
Baptism year 1869
Baptism date 19 Jul 1869
Baptism place Bedminster, St John, Somersetshire, England
Father's first name(s) Philip
Father's last name Tovey
Mother's first name Marianne
Mother's last name Tovey
Place Bedminster, St John
Town Bristol
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Baptism Index 1660-1914
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms

First name(s) Rosina Ann
Last name Tovey
Baptism year 1865
Baptism date 21 Sep 1865
Baptism place Bedminster, St John, Somersetshire, England
Father's first name(s) Philip
Father's last name Tovey
Mother's first name Mary Ann
Mother's last name Tovey
Place Bedminster, St John
Town Bristol
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Baptism Index 1660-1914
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain