Military Chat

Wondered if any of you knowledgeable folks could throw some light on this..

On hols in France in June 2014. Walked around Haute-Ville Cemetary, Provins.. Small war graves section, mostly French, but one single CWGC headstone for a William Connor Regt No 350975 Princess Louise's Argylly & Sutherland Highlanders. Seemed sad to see his grave all alone here and so tried to find out a bit more about him.

He is reported to have "died" rather than KIA or DoW on 18 July 1918 Found family on 1901 Census when Wm was 8. He had a 5 year old brother, Francis, (among other siblings).

He is commemorated on the Slateford War Memorial (search this - photos of same) where there is also a Francis Connor. Found two Francis Connor on CWGC site, one KIA 20 July 1915 aged 20 (2nd Btn Royal Scots) Regt No 2619, commemorated on Menin Gate, Ypres. Was he a brother??. The other was with 1st/8th Btn Royal Scots. KIA 21 July 1918 aged 21. Age does not quite tally with being a brother but he was born in same area. Interred Marfaux British Cemetary.

I believe "someone somewhere" but I don't know who is researching the Slateford War Memorial, no least because of the Notman family - there are five Notman's listed, four of them brothers. What a price this family paid.

Any further information on William Connor would be much appreciated, he has become something of a crusade, being all by himself in a foreign cemetary.

Many thanks.

Ramona

There does appear to have been another Francis Connor living in the same area:


1901 Scotland Census
Francis Connor

Age:5
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1896
Relationship:Son
Father's Name:Thomas Connor
Mother's name:Bridget M Connor
Gender:Male
Where born:Colinton, Edinburghshire
Registration Number:677
Registration district:Colinton
Civil Parish:Colinton
County:Midlothian
Address:Longstone
Occupation:Scholar
ED:8
Household schedule number:145
LINE:7
Roll:CSSCT1901_360
Household Members:

Thomas Connor 39
Bridget M Connor 37
Thomas Connor 9
Catherine Connor 11
Robert Connor 7
Francis Connor 5
Bridget Connor 3
James M Connor 11 M

(William's CWGC record gives his mother as M A Connor)

This appears to be William's brother Francis's Service Record. On one of the images it gives his father as William Connor, Redhall Cottage - on William's CWGC record his address is given as Redhall, Slateford.

So, it looks as if the Francis who was killed is the son of Thomas & Bridger.

I am wondering where you get the ages for the two Francis you found on the CWGC - I cannot see any ages on there and one of the two (the one who was killed in July 1918, is just listed as F.

Just for general information, there was also a Canadian A&S Regiment, that fought in the Great War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Argyll_and_Sutherland_Highlanders_of_Canada_(Princess_Louise%27s)

Many thanks all ...

As well as searching the CWGC site I also downloaded record transcriptions via Genes Reunited from "Soldiers died in the Great War, for both "Francis's" the full Christian name was given.

The 1901 Census for Scotland lists the family of William as
Father: William (born Colinton, Edinburgh)
Mother: Mary Ann (presumably a widow when son William died on 18.7.1918 as she is listed as his NoK, rather than his father)

Siblings:
James, then aged 14
John, 12
Jane, 10
WILLIAM, 8
FRANCIS, 5
Joseph 3
Helen, 1

William was originally interred at Provins Old Cemetary in a French Military Plot
but was exhumed and reinterred at the present site in October 1927.

Have not been able to establish his cause of death, but in this pre-antibiotic age he could have succumbed to an infection which today could be treated.

It would be very satisfying if a surviving family member could pick this up and provide further details, perhaps even a photo.

Thanks again to all.

I have seen a suggestion elsewhere on the web that his unit are known to have been transiting that area at that time, probably by train, and that he was taken ill and taken to the nearest French hospital. I looked for his death record but couldn't find it so that suggests his death was recorded in the French system. That often happened where death was distant from a soldier's unit. Just needs someone to crack the French registration system.

I don't think France has a central registration system. You could try contacting the Marie (Mayor's office) for the nearest town or village.

Thanks again

Denis: a fellow traveller this June (ex-soldier himself) did pass on a message from an email he had received that William's regt was being trained in to this area at around the time of his death. The "emailer" said he was researching the Slateford Memorial but I don't know who he is. I too have looked for a UK death certificate but not found any reference. I had assumed that, eventually, all the war dead would have had to have some sort of official death certificate if only for the surviving family to deal with their "estate" but perhaps not.

Thanks again.

R

Where did you look for the death? My uncle's death in WW1 is not on freebmd but it is on the GRO War Deaths on FMP. I can't find William on there but the two Francis are.

Jeffrey - you are correct in assuming that there would be a UK d.cert. Since Wm was in a Scottish regt, and probably also attested in Scotland, the GROS would hold the record - not that d.certs for war deaths are very informative - the Scottish ones are like the English war d.certs - there's a link to a free example of a register page (for the Border Regt) in the last line of the web page:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&404

I have already checked Scotlandspeople and that is why I concluded that the death had been registered by a French authority. It's always possible I missed it on Scotlandspeople and so someone might want to double check. But having said all that it's a well established fact that for various reasons there are many British soldiers in the Great War whose deaths were registered by the French.

Provins has a website, with a contact email address. Don't know how good your French is but you could try emailing them.

http://lannuaire.service-public.fr/mairies/ile-de-france/seine-et-marne/mairie-77379-01.html

I have made contact with a local family history society there who are currently looking at French war graves in that cemetery. They said they will see if there's any accessible information. I think there's a 100 year bar on releasing official registration records generally. No promises of course but I'll come back if there's anything further to report.

CWCG states that the "grave" was re-grouped in 1927 to its present position.

Thanks again all. As "Potty" suggested I googled "Provins" then "Provins+Haute Ville+war graves" and came up with some more info - including a photograph of the CWG headstone. It would seem I have not been the only one trying to find out something about William as one of the posts was back in 2004. Perhaps with the increased interest in WW! 100 years on a surviving family member may crop up.
"Denis" hope you have some success - would love to hear further as and when.

Will close this thread now but will keep an eye on it.

I have another query re a WW2 photo which I will post separately rather than confuse this thread.

TTFN and thanks for all the help.

You're welcome, Jeffrey. If you do find out any more, please come back and let us know.

Up date here
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/military_chat/thread/1347060

Jeffrey - Although these are Canadian attestations, I wouldn't assume naming the mother as n.o.k. implied she was a widow.

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/487152a.gif
[Charles attested 13/9/1915]
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/487163a.gif
[Joseph jr attested 18/10/1915]


Now to demonstrate their dad Joseph snr is still alive

Montreal city directory at http://bibnum2.bnquebec.ca/bna/lovell/
Lovell 1915-1916 Section Mas page 3 de 9
Massie, J driver 715 St Antoine
Massie, Joseph jr clk 715 St Antoine Westmt
[Charles is either off in Camp Valcartier or was still under 21 when the directory was complied]

Lovell 1916-1917 Section Mar page 19 de 26
Massie, J driver 57 Brewster av


Quebec Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1967
Name: Elizabeth Patterson
Event Year: 1916
Event: Enterrement (Burial)
Religion: Presbyterian
Place of Worship or Institution: Montréal (Presbyterian Calvin)
Province: Québec (Quebec)

Elizabeth Patterson wife of Joseph Massie
died at her late residence 57 Brewster St
Montreal on the twenty-third day of
December in the year of our Lord one
thousand nine hundred and sixteen and
was buried in Mount Royal Cemetery
on the twenty-sixth day of the same
month and year in the presence of
the undersigned witnesses.

W.D.Turner
Minister
Joseph Massie
George Massie
[The entry is signed by Joseph Snr - Jr is in France by now]


Elizabeth is buried as: Elizabeth Massie
Death: Dec. 23, 1916
Burial:
Mount Royal Cemetery
Montreal
Montreal Region
Quebec, Canada

Find A Grave Memorial# 108215016