Military Chat

As no one has posted Thomas on the 1901 census this looks like him


Name: Thos Hodgson
Age; 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Crew
Gender:Male

Birth Place: Ulverston in Furness, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
Town:Chatham

County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:,,,,,,He is listed as a Stoker Class 2
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Medway
Sub-registration district: Gillingham
ED, institution, or vessel: Pembroke (4)
Neighbors:
View others on page
Piece:740
Folio:101
Page Number: 2
Household schedule number: 1

occupation Stoker is inline with him being listed on other records as fireman,
In navy terms its the same job spec

Roy

Reference His father, His father would be Hodgson, The mystery is where did he get the name "Hudson" from? His army service records states his father as James Hodgson living in Lancashire and and mother as Ann hodgson living at (Not nown)

Chris Ho, did post that above

Ada probably never re-married because his record also states she was awarded a pension on the the 9/6/1917 with effect from the 11/6/1917 it says awarded a pension of 31/3 per week for her and 4 children

Not 100% sure but it could be/looks like a pension of 31shillings and 3d per week

Had she re-married then she would have probably lost the pension as the new stepdad would be expected to keep his new wife and her children, thats why step-children used to be refered to on census's as inlaws, eg, daugher inlaw and son inlaw


He was awarded the british war medal and the victory medal



Roy

Daniel, Only the marriage and then a birth certificate can answer the questions your asking,

The use of a surname as a middle name was so that illigitimate children could still have dad's name included on the birth cert details even without his permission,

I have given other examples on my post on page one of this thread.

We have given you info based on the information available online but this is limited to whats on the BMD's index, only the certificates can give more detail,

His marriage cert will give his age and occupation and his fathers name and occupation "if known"

His birth will give his mothers name and any other names she has previously been known by such as any previous married names and her maiden name plus his fathers name if he was not illigitimate, Although after the Registration Act of 1875 fathers names of illigitimate children could be named on a birth cert if both parents attended the registry office to register the birth and both would have had to sign as informant,

A good site to study for what info is on a BMD cert and understanding/interpreting that info is http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/indexbd.htm

With regard to your sister and the double barrel surname, Your sister and the father of her children must have wanted both surnames to be used as the childs surname.

Example, Jane Jones and John smith have a child, they want the child to have both their surnames and go to the registry office and register the birth,

they name the child forename Simon surname Jones-Smith

On the birth index you will see several entries for that one birth.

They will be found as follows

1, Forename Simon surname Jones-Smith
2, Forename simon surname Jones
3, Forname Simon surname Smith
4, And their could/should also be an entry forname Simon surname Smith-Jones

All will have the same GRO reference and their will only be one birth certificate for all those entries,

When this happens people think they have more than one birth cert but they are wrong a birth can only be registered once, It can be ammended/re-registered but even the ammendment/re-registration will have a reference to the one original birth entry/certificate

Your sister could if her and hubby wanted go back and legitimize the birth by re-register the birth in her new-married name, The child would then just have the single surname.

Roy

Wow again thank you I will check all this out but i know what you said earlier about iligitamate children but where would Hodgson Hudson come in here, how would my Hudson name go from Hodgson to Hudson. Would the dad be Hudson or Hodgson, mum be Hudson or Hodgson for Thomas to take the name Hodgson Hudson, I understand as my sister had iligitamate kids and married after and they have a double barrelled surname.

1891
HODGSON, James Head Married M 45 1846 Iron Miner
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Ann Wife Married F 47 1844
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Isaac Son Single M 15 1876 Drapers Assistant
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Mary Daughter F 11 1880 Scholar
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Robert Son M 10 1881 Scholar
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Thomas Son M 8 1883 Scholar
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Joseph Son M 3 1888
Ulverston, Lancashire
Piece: 3476
Folio: 49
Page: 5
Registration District: Ulverston
Civil Parish: Ulverston
Municipal Borough:
Address: 2, Quebec Street, Ulverston
County: Lancashire

1901
HODGSON, James Head Married M 54 1847 District Council Labourer
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Ann Wife Married F 58 1843
Ulverston, Lancashire
Piece: 4004
Folio: 37
Page: 3
Registration District: Ulverston
Civil Parish: Ulverston
Municipal Borough:
Address: 25, The Ellers, Ulverston
County: Lancashire

1911
HODGSON, Joseph Head Married M 25 1886 Carter Stone Lancashire Ulverston
HODGSON, Isabella Wife Married F 25 1886 Cotton Winder Lancashire Blackburn
HODGSON, Belle Daughter Single F 1 1910 Yorkshire Barnoldswick
HODGSON, Ann Mother Married44 years F 68 1843 Private Means Lancashire Ulverston
RG number: RG14
Piece: 25773
Reference: RG14PN25773 RG78PN1484 RD485 SD3 ED15 SN22
Registration District: Skipton
Sub District: Barnoldswick
Enumeration District: 15
Parish: Barnoldswick
Address: 13 Westgate Barnoldswick
County: Yorkshire (West riding)


As a James and Ann are given for Mother and Father, and a Joseph living Lancashire (address not known) above could relate. Grandparents not living, Nieces and Nephews of Soldier, "don't know".


Births Dec 1912 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Hudson Violet A Hyde Orsett 4a 1223

(also relating)


To get things accurate, you need the Birth and Marriage Certs. of Thomas (posted earlier)


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Thomas Hodgson
Gender:Male
Birth Date:5 Jan 1883
Birth Place:Ulverston, Lancaster, England
Baptism Date:4 Feb 1883
Baptism Place:Ulverston, Lancashire, England
Father:James Hodgson
Mother: Ann Hodgson

Chris :)

(worth a check in 'Search All Members Trees', top right of page, under 'Search', somebody may share names!)


HUDSON, ERNEST JAMES
Rank:SerjeantService No:19566Date of Death:15/04/1917Age:26Regiment/Service:Essex Regiment "C" Coy. 11th Bn. Grave ReferenceIV. B. 52.CemeteryLONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY
Additional Information:

Son of Mr. and Mrs. H. R. Hudson, of 43, George St., Grays, Essex.

(above was other name)

wow this is amazing thank you, i have printed everything you have all said and put in my portfolio for my family, wow thomas hodgson hudson ive finally found him, well you guys have thank you ever so much, hopefully i can go further but now dont know where to start again because of the hodgson hudson thing lol.

all the input is great i am ever so greatfull and cant wait to tell my grandad who never knew his grandad thomas hudson. it will bring a tear to his eyes.

you guys seem really experienced on this stuff so any hint or tips for me to go further or other help would be amazing

thank you again

dan

The Thomas from Ulverston is your man,

Go over the info provided again, the one thing found on all that ties them together is the addresses, They are all the same address

(30 Benson Road, Grays Essex ) is given as their address on the 1911 census for him, Its given on his death date of 30/11/1916 on the CWGC as the address of his wife, its given in his army records with the middle name Hodgson, and finaly it appears on the birth of his son registered in march quarter of 1915

Forget what you have been told, Memories get blurry over the years and although usualy the basics are right they are often jumbled as they get past from person to person and as the years go by

Facts is what's needed and the records are the best way to sort out fact from hearsay

Roy

Daniel


read my post on the other page

it explains why children where born with his name after his death

I can't explain it any clearer than that, except to say that they obviously were not "his" children ............... but they were born to his wife, and Hudson was her legal name.

You will not know unless you are able to buy at least one of the birth certificates.



Maybe she had a reason for not marrying the father(s) of the later children.

A possible reason for not marrying again could be that she had a pension that she would lose if she did re-marry. That's just one suggestion.

Wow thanks I also have this

I WENT TO GRAYS TO LOOK AT THE MONUMENT, THERE IS NO OTHER INFO

SO I WENT TO GRAYS LIBRARY AND ASKED IF THEY HAD ANY INFO ON THE NAMES ON THE MONUMENT.

THEY HAD THE NAMES OF TWO THOMAS HUDSON'S.

BOTH SERVED IN THE ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY, BOTH DIED IN FRANCE.

ONE WAS SGT T. HUDSON 1122 (DIED 30/11/1916)

THE OTHER WAS A PRIVATE T.HUDSON 59623 (DIED 30/10/1914)

THERE WAS NO MENTION OF THE NAVY OR NAME CHANGE for Thomas Hodgson Hudson

THE OTHER NAME ON THE WAR MEMORIAL (E HUDSON) no relation as I know it's Thomas from birth certificate.

WAS SGT. HUDSON 19566 ESSEX REG. (DIED 15/04/1917) AND ALSO DIED IN FRANCE

ALL THREE ARE BURIED IN FRANCE.

I got told my great nan use to lay wreaths for her father in law Thomas Hudson at the memorial.

It's comes up that the private Hudson who died in 1914 was born in walworth, surrey
The Thomas Hudson maybe hodgson hudson married to Ada was born in ulverston in Furness and must of moved to Essex, I think that's the one but need to narrow down when he died and why kids were born with his name after he suppose to have died, if I have the extra cash I will try get thier birth certificates ASAP

Thanks for that interesting info on the exmouth Roy, and thanks everyone for your input, hopefully have it narrowed down soon

It also appears that the training ship exmouth was a workhouse ship owned and run by poor law

The President of the Local Government Board, Admiral Phillimore, and the managers of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, paid an official visit to her Majesty's ship the Exmouth, lying off Grays, in Essex, which has been instituted as a training ship for boys chargeable to the poor rates of the metropolitan parishes and unions


Imperial rates for school teachers and seamen instructors, the cost is 10s. a week for each boy taken from a London workhouse and trained for the Imperial or mercantile marine.

From http://www.workhouses.org.uk/MAB-TrainingShips/


So he may simply have been a fireman instructor but could have been given the title of officer as the boys in his care would have had to address him as (Sir)

Also see http://www.workhouses.org.uk/trainingships/

Roy

Daniel, Nothing to be puzzled about, Read what SylviaInCanads posted on page one 20 Feb 2014 00:29

It explains why children born to a mother after her husbands death are still registered in the husbands surname

The info you have been given is just a little out on dates and place of death

His wife appears NOT to have re-married (No record of such a marriage found) and her death was registered as a Hudson

On the 1911 Census he is listed as occupation Ship's Fireman (Worker) so very unlikely he would have become an Officer, ( Some people do exaggerate their status in life on offical documents )

Take some time to read all the replies and digest the info provided

Roy

hi all this information is amazing and i appreciate everything you guys are doing for me it means alot, i have a wife and two little boys and am tight with cash so im trying to do much as i can on the free things. on the birth certificate for a Alfred Joseph Hudson who is my great grandad as my living grandad has told me. know one knows of my family before alfred jospeh thats why im stuck, i have a wife and two little boys and am tight with cash so im trying to do much as i can on the free things.

Alfred joseph hudson born 20 nov 1914 but not registered till january 1915
Father thomas hudson
Mother Ada Ann Hyde
Occupation of father: Officer on training ship "EXMOUTH"
Residence: 30 Benson Road, Grays Essex

all i have been told is that he died in 1914 and he is on grays war memorial, thats why im puzzled for the other births after alfred josephs in 1914

Not seeing a birth in Ulverston for a Thomas Hodgson Hudson or a Thomas Hudson but their is this

Births Mar 1883
HODGSON Thomas Ulverston 8e 812

he may have adopted the name Hudson, Possibly after a second marriage for his mother?

Or was he illigitimate and then his mother married a Hudson?

There is a Will for him see https://www.gov.uk/probate-search

You can download the will it will cost £6

Roy

Good find Chris, So it looks like John T Hudson's was named after his dad and never died in 1914 at Ypres but in 1916 and in the Somme

Roy



Medal card
Reference:
WO 372/10/84354
Description:
Medal card of Hudson, Thomas H
Corps Regiment No Rank
Royal Field Artillery 1122 Acting Serjeant
Date: 1914-1920
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 (Ancestry)
Thomas Hodgson Hudson
Residence:30 Benson Road, Grays Essex (as 1911)
Document Year:1915
Regimental Number:1122
Regiment Name:
Home Counties Howe Bde RGA
Number of Images:20

(quite a bit to read through above, Died 30th Nov. 1916. Effect of Gas?)

Chris :)

HUDSON, T H
Rank:SerjeantService No:1122 Date of Death:30/11/1916 Age:33 Regiment/Service:Royal Field Artillery 223rd Bde. Grave ReferenceIII. D. 15.Cemetery MESNIL COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
Additional Information:

Husband of Ada Ann Hudson, of 30, Benson Rd., Grays, Essex.

http://www.cwgc.org/

http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=3258059

http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/mesnilcomext.htm

Daniel, You have been asked to delete the duplicate threads

Why have you not done so?

I would seriously question the information you have been given,

you say Thomas's birth cert states, "occupation was an officer on a training ship exmouth"...........Does it also state Deceased?

If Thomas died just before the birth of a son why was that son not named after his deceased father?
The new born son's birth was not registered until the march quarter 1915 so registered in 1915 (ref my question Does it also state Deceased? )

Their are also no further marriages listed for mum Ada and looking at the pattern of births they are fairly regular with the gap between the 1920 and 1926 birth being the only one that stands out,

As sylvia said If Thomas died whilst serving as an Officer in the Navy what was he doing at Ypres?


Roy

1911 (FMP)
HUDSON, Thomas Head Married M 28 1883 Ship's Fireman (Worker) Ulverston in Furness
HUDSON, Ada Ann Wife Married5 years F 23 1888 Tilbury Essex
HUDSON, May Elizabeth Ann Daughter F 4 1907 Tilbury Essex
HUDSON, James Francis Son M 2 1909 Tilbury Essex
HUDSON, Henry William Son M 0 (9 WEEKS) 1911 Grays Essex
HYDE, Theresa Ann Mother In Law Married F 52 1859 London E St Georges
HYDE, John Francis Brother In Law Single M 30 1881 Ship's Fireman Stepney London
HYDE, Christopher Robert Brother In Law Single M 20 1891 Cook's Assistant (Shipping) Tilbury Essex
RG number: RG14
Piece: 9967
Reference: RG14PN9967 RG78PN524 RD192 SD1 ED16 SN72
Registration District: Orsett
Sub District: Grays
Enumeration District: 16
Parish: Grays Thurrock
Address: 30 Benson Road Grays Thurrock
County: Essex


Marriages Mar 1906 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------
Hudson Thomas Orsett 4a 542
HYDE Ada Ann Orsett 4a 542

(also, do you have his Occupation details from above Cert.?)


Soldiers Died in the Great War1914-1919 (Find My Past)
Name: Thomas HUDSON
Rank: DVR.
Initials: T
Birthplace: Walworth, Surrey
Place of residence:
Enlisted: London
Regiment, Corps etc.: Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery
Battalion etc.:
Number: 59623
Date died: 30 October 1914
How died: Killed in action
Theatre of war: France & Flanders

(the one posted above)

Chris :)

1901 (Ada)
HYDE, Theresa Head Married F 40 1861 Laundress
St Georges, London
HYDE, John Son Single M 20 1881 Deal Porter
Stepney, London
HYDE, Theresa Daughter Single F 18 1883 Laundress
Limehouse, London
HYDE, Caroline Daughter Single F 15 1886 Laundress
Stepney, London
HYDE, Ada Daughter Single F 13 1888
Tilbury, Essex
HYDE, Christopher Son Single M 10 1891
Tilbury, Essex
GUDGEON, Julia Mother Widow F 49 1852
Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Piece: 1661
Folio: 103
Page: 44
Registration District: Orsett
Civil Parish: Chadwell St Mary
Municipal Borough:
Address: 29, Montreal Road, Chadwell St Mary, Tilbury
County: Essex

1891
HYDE, Robert L Head Married M 34 1857 Dock Labourer
Stepney, London
HYDE, Theresa A Wife Married F 32 1859
St George's, London
HYDE, John Son M 10 1881
Mile End, London
HYDE, Theresa Daughter F 8 1883
Limehouse, London
HYDE, Caroline Daughter F 4 1887
Limehouse, London
HYDE, Ada Daughter F 3 1888
Tilbury, Essex
HYDE, Christopher Son M 0 (9M) 1891
Tilbury, Essex
Piece: 1379
Folio: 55
Page: 39
Registration District: Orsett
Civil Parish: Chadwell St Mary
Municipal Borough:
Address: 3, Selwyn Road, Chadwell St Mary
County: Essex

Births Mar 1888 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
HYDE Ada Ann Orsett 4a 397


http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

(above for BMD's)

Get one of these birth certs to see if Thomas is named as dad

Name: John T Hudson
Mother's Maiden Surname: Hyde
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Registration district: Orsett
Inferred County: Suffolk
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 1041


Name: Francis Hudson
Mother's Maiden Surname: Hyde
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1920
Registration district: Orsett
Inferred County: Essex, Suffolk
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 1318

Name: Ivy E Hudson
Mother's Maiden Surname: Hyde
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1926
Registration district: Orsett
Inferred County: Essex, Suffolk
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 1029


This will at least tell you if Thomas was still alive or not

marriage
Name: Thomas Hudson
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1906
Registration district: Orsett
Inferred County: Essex
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 542
Records on Page:
Thomas Hudson
Ada Ann Hyde

No way of knowing if this was him

HUDSON, THOMAS

Rank:
Driver
Service No:
59623
Date of Death:
30/10/1914
Regiment/Service:
Royal Field Artillery

105th Bty. 22nd Bde.
Panel Reference
Panel 5 and 9.
Memorial
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
Additional Information: