Military Chat

hi all this information is amazing and i appreciate everything you guys are doing for me it means alot, i have a wife and two little boys and am tight with cash so im trying to do much as i can on the free things. on the birth certificate for a Alfred Joseph Hudson who is my great grandad as my living grandad has told me. know one knows of my family before alfred jospeh thats why im stuck, i have a wife and two little boys and am tight with cash so im trying to do much as i can on the free things.

Alfred joseph hudson born 20 nov 1914 but not registered till january 1915
Father thomas hudson
Mother Ada Ann Hyde
Occupation of father: Officer on training ship "EXMOUTH"
Residence: 30 Benson Road, Grays Essex

all i have been told is that he died in 1914 and he is on grays war memorial, thats why im puzzled for the other births after alfred josephs in 1914

Daniel, Nothing to be puzzled about, Read what SylviaInCanads posted on page one 20 Feb 2014 00:29

It explains why children born to a mother after her husbands death are still registered in the husbands surname

The info you have been given is just a little out on dates and place of death

His wife appears NOT to have re-married (No record of such a marriage found) and her death was registered as a Hudson

On the 1911 Census he is listed as occupation Ship's Fireman (Worker) so very unlikely he would have become an Officer, ( Some people do exaggerate their status in life on offical documents )

Take some time to read all the replies and digest the info provided

Roy

It also appears that the training ship exmouth was a workhouse ship owned and run by poor law

The President of the Local Government Board, Admiral Phillimore, and the managers of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, paid an official visit to her Majesty's ship the Exmouth, lying off Grays, in Essex, which has been instituted as a training ship for boys chargeable to the poor rates of the metropolitan parishes and unions


Imperial rates for school teachers and seamen instructors, the cost is 10s. a week for each boy taken from a London workhouse and trained for the Imperial or mercantile marine.

From http://www.workhouses.org.uk/MAB-TrainingShips/


So he may simply have been a fireman instructor but could have been given the title of officer as the boys in his care would have had to address him as (Sir)

Also see http://www.workhouses.org.uk/trainingships/

Roy

Wow thanks I also have this

I WENT TO GRAYS TO LOOK AT THE MONUMENT, THERE IS NO OTHER INFO

SO I WENT TO GRAYS LIBRARY AND ASKED IF THEY HAD ANY INFO ON THE NAMES ON THE MONUMENT.

THEY HAD THE NAMES OF TWO THOMAS HUDSON'S.

BOTH SERVED IN THE ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY, BOTH DIED IN FRANCE.

ONE WAS SGT T. HUDSON 1122 (DIED 30/11/1916)

THE OTHER WAS A PRIVATE T.HUDSON 59623 (DIED 30/10/1914)

THERE WAS NO MENTION OF THE NAVY OR NAME CHANGE for Thomas Hodgson Hudson

THE OTHER NAME ON THE WAR MEMORIAL (E HUDSON) no relation as I know it's Thomas from birth certificate.

WAS SGT. HUDSON 19566 ESSEX REG. (DIED 15/04/1917) AND ALSO DIED IN FRANCE

ALL THREE ARE BURIED IN FRANCE.

I got told my great nan use to lay wreaths for her father in law Thomas Hudson at the memorial.

It's comes up that the private Hudson who died in 1914 was born in walworth, surrey
The Thomas Hudson maybe hodgson hudson married to Ada was born in ulverston in Furness and must of moved to Essex, I think that's the one but need to narrow down when he died and why kids were born with his name after he suppose to have died, if I have the extra cash I will try get thier birth certificates ASAP

Thanks for that interesting info on the exmouth Roy, and thanks everyone for your input, hopefully have it narrowed down soon

Daniel


read my post on the other page

it explains why children where born with his name after his death

I can't explain it any clearer than that, except to say that they obviously were not "his" children ............... but they were born to his wife, and Hudson was her legal name.

You will not know unless you are able to buy at least one of the birth certificates.



Maybe she had a reason for not marrying the father(s) of the later children.

A possible reason for not marrying again could be that she had a pension that she would lose if she did re-marry. That's just one suggestion.

The Thomas from Ulverston is your man,

Go over the info provided again, the one thing found on all that ties them together is the addresses, They are all the same address

(30 Benson Road, Grays Essex ) is given as their address on the 1911 census for him, Its given on his death date of 30/11/1916 on the CWGC as the address of his wife, its given in his army records with the middle name Hodgson, and finaly it appears on the birth of his son registered in march quarter of 1915

Forget what you have been told, Memories get blurry over the years and although usualy the basics are right they are often jumbled as they get past from person to person and as the years go by

Facts is what's needed and the records are the best way to sort out fact from hearsay

Roy

wow this is amazing thank you, i have printed everything you have all said and put in my portfolio for my family, wow thomas hodgson hudson ive finally found him, well you guys have thank you ever so much, hopefully i can go further but now dont know where to start again because of the hodgson hudson thing lol.

all the input is great i am ever so greatfull and cant wait to tell my grandad who never knew his grandad thomas hudson. it will bring a tear to his eyes.

you guys seem really experienced on this stuff so any hint or tips for me to go further or other help would be amazing

thank you again

dan

1891
HODGSON, James Head Married M 45 1846 Iron Miner
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Ann Wife Married F 47 1844
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Isaac Son Single M 15 1876 Drapers Assistant
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Mary Daughter F 11 1880 Scholar
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Robert Son M 10 1881 Scholar
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Thomas Son M 8 1883 Scholar
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Joseph Son M 3 1888
Ulverston, Lancashire
Piece: 3476
Folio: 49
Page: 5
Registration District: Ulverston
Civil Parish: Ulverston
Municipal Borough:
Address: 2, Quebec Street, Ulverston
County: Lancashire

1901
HODGSON, James Head Married M 54 1847 District Council Labourer
Ulverston, Lancashire
HODGSON, Ann Wife Married F 58 1843
Ulverston, Lancashire
Piece: 4004
Folio: 37
Page: 3
Registration District: Ulverston
Civil Parish: Ulverston
Municipal Borough:
Address: 25, The Ellers, Ulverston
County: Lancashire

1911
HODGSON, Joseph Head Married M 25 1886 Carter Stone Lancashire Ulverston
HODGSON, Isabella Wife Married F 25 1886 Cotton Winder Lancashire Blackburn
HODGSON, Belle Daughter Single F 1 1910 Yorkshire Barnoldswick
HODGSON, Ann Mother Married44 years F 68 1843 Private Means Lancashire Ulverston
RG number: RG14
Piece: 25773
Reference: RG14PN25773 RG78PN1484 RD485 SD3 ED15 SN22
Registration District: Skipton
Sub District: Barnoldswick
Enumeration District: 15
Parish: Barnoldswick
Address: 13 Westgate Barnoldswick
County: Yorkshire (West riding)


As a James and Ann are given for Mother and Father, and a Joseph living Lancashire (address not known) above could relate. Grandparents not living, Nieces and Nephews of Soldier, "don't know".


Births Dec 1912 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Hudson Violet A Hyde Orsett 4a 1223

(also relating)


To get things accurate, you need the Birth and Marriage Certs. of Thomas (posted earlier)


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Thomas Hodgson
Gender:Male
Birth Date:5 Jan 1883
Birth Place:Ulverston, Lancaster, England
Baptism Date:4 Feb 1883
Baptism Place:Ulverston, Lancashire, England
Father:James Hodgson
Mother: Ann Hodgson

Chris :)

(worth a check in 'Search All Members Trees', top right of page, under 'Search', somebody may share names!)


HUDSON, ERNEST JAMES
Rank:SerjeantService No:19566Date of Death:15/04/1917Age:26Regiment/Service:Essex Regiment "C" Coy. 11th Bn. Grave ReferenceIV. B. 52.CemeteryLONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY
Additional Information:

Son of Mr. and Mrs. H. R. Hudson, of 43, George St., Grays, Essex.

(above was other name)

Wow again thank you I will check all this out but i know what you said earlier about iligitamate children but where would Hodgson Hudson come in here, how would my Hudson name go from Hodgson to Hudson. Would the dad be Hudson or Hodgson, mum be Hudson or Hodgson for Thomas to take the name Hodgson Hudson, I understand as my sister had iligitamate kids and married after and they have a double barrelled surname.

Daniel, Only the marriage and then a birth certificate can answer the questions your asking,

The use of a surname as a middle name was so that illigitimate children could still have dad's name included on the birth cert details even without his permission,

I have given other examples on my post on page one of this thread.

We have given you info based on the information available online but this is limited to whats on the BMD's index, only the certificates can give more detail,

His marriage cert will give his age and occupation and his fathers name and occupation "if known"

His birth will give his mothers name and any other names she has previously been known by such as any previous married names and her maiden name plus his fathers name if he was not illigitimate, Although after the Registration Act of 1875 fathers names of illigitimate children could be named on a birth cert if both parents attended the registry office to register the birth and both would have had to sign as informant,

A good site to study for what info is on a BMD cert and understanding/interpreting that info is http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/indexbd.htm

With regard to your sister and the double barrel surname, Your sister and the father of her children must have wanted both surnames to be used as the childs surname.

Example, Jane Jones and John smith have a child, they want the child to have both their surnames and go to the registry office and register the birth,

they name the child forename Simon surname Jones-Smith

On the birth index you will see several entries for that one birth.

They will be found as follows

1, Forename Simon surname Jones-Smith
2, Forename simon surname Jones
3, Forname Simon surname Smith
4, And their could/should also be an entry forname Simon surname Smith-Jones

All will have the same GRO reference and their will only be one birth certificate for all those entries,

When this happens people think they have more than one birth cert but they are wrong a birth can only be registered once, It can be ammended/re-registered but even the ammendment/re-registration will have a reference to the one original birth entry/certificate

Your sister could if her and hubby wanted go back and legitimize the birth by re-register the birth in her new-married name, The child would then just have the single surname.

Roy

Reference His father, His father would be Hodgson, The mystery is where did he get the name "Hudson" from? His army service records states his father as James Hodgson living in Lancashire and and mother as Ann hodgson living at (Not nown)

Chris Ho, did post that above

Ada probably never re-married because his record also states she was awarded a pension on the the 9/6/1917 with effect from the 11/6/1917 it says awarded a pension of 31/3 per week for her and 4 children

Not 100% sure but it could be/looks like a pension of 31shillings and 3d per week

Had she re-married then she would have probably lost the pension as the new stepdad would be expected to keep his new wife and her children, thats why step-children used to be refered to on census's as inlaws, eg, daugher inlaw and son inlaw


He was awarded the british war medal and the victory medal



Roy

As no one has posted Thomas on the 1901 census this looks like him


Name: Thos Hodgson
Age; 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Crew
Gender:Male

Birth Place: Ulverston in Furness, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
Town:Chatham

County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:,,,,,,He is listed as a Stoker Class 2
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Medway
Sub-registration district: Gillingham
ED, institution, or vessel: Pembroke (4)
Neighbors:
View others on page
Piece:740
Folio:101
Page Number: 2
Household schedule number: 1

occupation Stoker is inline with him being listed on other records as fireman,
In navy terms its the same job spec

Roy

Description:Name Hodgson, Thomas
Official Number: 295075
Place of Birth: Ulverston, Lancashire
Date of Birth: 05 January 1881

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/royal-naval-seamen.htm

(Navy Record can be downloaded from above, £3.36)

(could well be above?)

Chris :)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1337683

FREE ACCESS THIS WEEKEND!

(saw above, if Daniel interested, could be useful!)

Just checking on the Vessel Pembroke at Chatham and it looks like Pembroke was the name of the barracks in the dockyard

Edit,, Just found this
Prior to the 1903 accommodation had been in three hulks, one of which was HMS Pembroke. The name was transferred to the new barracks 1st May, 1903. The barracks closed in 1961

from http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=3372.0

Roy

Thank you chris and Roy ever so much, I will try and buy the bits you have said about in all posts once I have some cash to spare (hard times)

Really appreciate all this, I'm ever so great full and it's all so interesting :). :). :)

Because of what you guys have done I have sat on ancestry for a few hours as its free this weekend and think I've gone even further and goin Thomas's dad and mum, James Hodgson and Ann Hudson, which is where thomas got hodgson hudson from, which then I found a marriage cert from 1879 stating both thier fathers names thomas Hodgson and James Hudson. Think James Hodgson might of been married before to a Jane Patterson before Ann as James was about 35 and Ann was 18 when they married. Just trying to confirm thier births, when and where.

Thank you truly amazing and interesting

Daniel, Glad you getting into the family history but be aware,

Be very aware Genealogy is VERY VERY addictive :-D

Roy

yeah is addictive but tricky just been working some stuff out and what i said above was wrong i think totally messed up lol, probs gone as far as i can go now

many thanks

dan

Chris and Roy thank you for everything you have done, I keep looking over it all and seems to be correct, I am putting some money by so I can order certificates and stuff but times are hard at the minute. I was wondering if you would help me some more in finding few bits out and going further as I'm stuck, if you have few 5 mins here and there would be fantastic and much appreciated, if not no worrie as you have done alot already. Thomas's mother and father was James Hodgson and Ann, I can't find Ann's maiden name??? Thought it might be Hudson but can only find a James Hodgson and Ann Hudson wedding in 1891 she was 18 and it would make James 45 so doubt it. But in the 1901 census James and Ann Hodgson were living together and in the 1911 Ann was living with her son Joseph. Think James Hodgson dad is a Robert??? Can't find wether James died or that was his wedding to Ann Hudson which I why Thomas changed to Hudson Hudson even though he was born in 1883, but looking think he might of changed it from being on that vessel in 1901 census, but I found out that people can change them for a number of reasons. Just trying to piece stuff together, what's Ann's maiden name and why Thomas changed his surname well added to it really, can't believe my name Hudson originated from Hodgson, so I'm really a Hodgson lol. Can't believe some stuff you found especially thomas Hudson dying in 1916 and his stone, my grandad was so happy and gob smacked.

Thanks again dan hudson

Daniel, When you are ready to order any certificates the site to use is the GRO or local registry officers, NEVER order from any other source,

Some local officers don't supply certs for family history but i believe most do, Your best and cheapest option is to use the GRO at Southport you can order online and just using the info on the GRO index,

You have to register first and they charge £9. 25 including P&P

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

When your ready to order your first cert if you need any guidance then just ask,

As for getting further back it's easy to head off in the wrong direction and follow the wrong family without confirming the details found, by all means continue to search but keep an open mind about what you find because without some certs you could end up following the wrong family,

Even the most experianced researcher will tell you WE have all done just that when we first started out, It can be expensive in both time and money if you don't get it right,

Roy