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Thank you, Elizabeth!
Very much appreciated!

Bruce

Google Mount Edgcumbe industrial school ship it is the second to last paragraph there is also a good National Archives if you contact they may be of some help

Thank you, Elizabeth, for taking the time to do research and help.

Where did you find the information regarding the Captain's claims?

I have never seen this information regarding Mount Edgecumbe.

With regards to Sidney's military records, I could not locate attestation papers for Sidney and assume that he served but his papers must have been destroyed in the WWII bombing of the records office. I did find military records that could be Sidney's but there is nothing to conclude they indeed belong to him through links to France or family members or an address in Devon or Sheffield prior to enlisting. The military records I stored are only based upon speculation that they could possibly belong to Sidney.
Regards
Bruce

just been reading up on the Mount Edgcumbe training ship and the Captain claims most of the boys joined the Navy or the Merchant Navy and a few the army. So looks like we should be looking in Naval records for Sydney

Hi Elizabeth, that story is in my Ancestry tree. The newspaper story quoted my grandfather stating three of his lost brothers (they were separated when my grandfather turned 12 and was sent alone to Canada) were killed or missing in action and presumed dead.
The only brother that I could confirmed was killed in action was James Harry. Besides my grandfather, Ernest, Charles W was the only other brother that I could absolutely confirm that he served in WWI. I assumed Sidney also served but i could never absolutely confirm and wondered if he was killed in action because I really had an impossible time tracking him after he was sent to Mount Edgecumbe Industrial School in Devon when he was 15.
That story caused me a lot of grief because I trusted there was some truth, at least 3 soldiers missing in action but I never found the facts to support it and I have facts to support James Harry was killed and the other brothers lived beyond the end of the war, with the exception of Sidney, his whereabouts afterwards is stil a mystery.

Regards
Bruce

getting confused. com now, on James deceased soldiers form it gives his mother as Mrs A Johnson. and his brothers and where they live, interesting that it has Sydney as being in France and all others living in Sheffield

Ottawa Newspaper cutting on a tree on ancestry say's 3 brothers died in the war

1911 for two of the people living with Gertrude in 1939

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
65 Daisy Walk Sheffield, Sheffield, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding), England

Herbert Pearson Head Married Male 34 1877 Yorkshire Sheffield St Phillips Steel Laborour Transcription
Lily Pearson Wife Married Female 32 1879 Yorkshire Sheffield Norton - Transcription
Frank Pearson Son - Male 12 1899 Yorkshire Sheffield St Judes School Transcription
Beatrice Pearson Daughter - Female 8 1903 Yorkshire Sheffield St Judes - Transcription
George Herbert Pearson Son - Male 5 1906 Yorkshire Sheffield St Judes - Transcription
Lilian Pearson Daughter - Female 3 1908 Yorkshire Sheffield St Judes - Transcription
Ada Pearson Daughter - Female 1 1910 Yorkshire Sheffield St Judes - Transcription
Ada MacKie Visitor Married Female 27 1884 Yorkshire Sheffield St Phillips - Transcription
Nelly MacKie Visitor - Female 5 1906 Aldershot - Transcription
Daisy MacKie Visitor - Female 4 1907 Aldershot - Transcription
Katholine MacKie Visitor - Female 2 1909 Egypt

Births of the older ones ffrom 1939


Births Sep 1913 (>99%)
Pearson Ethel Dalton Sheffield 9c 1126

Births Mar 1919 (>99%)
Pearson Stanley Sykes Sheffield 9c 956

*****************************************************************************************
Marriages Mar 1905 (>99%)

MACKIE George Sheffield 9c 558
Pearson Ada Sheffield 9c 558

I have seen the posts


EriKa

In that case the father would have been named as Fred Ward aka Dalton (or the other way round!)

+++DetEcTive+++ , the couple were married in 1923. Erica confirmed this.

Is it possible that the dual entries are due to the fact that Fred Ward's BC reads Fred Dalton? It seems odd that Lillian would be named Lillian Dalton on the 1939 Register when her older sister is named Isabel Irene Ward.

As I try to track the family members with Dalton and Ward records I am confused if they will turn up as Dalton's or Ward's.

I will remove the names once Erica sees the thread. Thank you for your help.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce, do be careful with the records you are now posting as some of the people are probably still living. Once Erica had acknowledged she’s seen the later ones, perhaps you could remove them?

A little trick with Freebmd. Let’s take
Gertrude L as she has already died

Births Mar 1937 (>99%)
Ward Gertrude L Fox Sheffield 9c 573

Go back to the Freebmd entry & click on the page number 573. The results will show all the names listed on the same page. Removing unrelated ones & you are left with

Births Mar 1937 (>99%)
Dalton Gertrude L Fox Sheffield 9c 573
Ward Gertrude L Fox Sheffield 9c 573

The register records all of the surnames recorded on the certificate. The only constant in this case is the maiden name of FOX.

TBH, I’ve lost track of the family dynamics. It could be that her father is shown as a Ward also known as Dalton, or it could be her mother is Ward, previously Dalton/Dalton previously Ward mmn Fox.

This type of double entry is more common where the parents aren’t married to each other eg
Christopher is the son of James Black & Sylvia Green mmn White. Sylvia is still married to Mr Green. Christopher’s birth entry would show as
Black, Christopher mmn White
Green, Christopher mmn White.

If Sylvia had never married anyone, the entry would show as
Black, Christopher mmn White
White , Christopher mmn White.

An English or Welsh BC does not assign a surname to the child. They can take or use what ever they like as long as it’s not for illegal purposes. The column where the child’s forename is written does not ask for a surname.

Just reiterating the fact that may explain these dual entries. I am pretty sure Fred Ward was born Fred Dalton and his name was later changed to Fred Ward, I believe when his mother, Alice, changed her name to Alice Ward to take the name of William Ward, who she lived with during this point in time.

Bruce

Further to my last post, I searched births for Dalton surname and Fox maiden name between 1935-1944 on FreeBMD and discovered the following:

Births Mar 1937 (>99%)
Dalton Gertrude L Fox Sheffield 9c 573


Gertrude L (Lillian) shows up on the 1939 Register as Lillian, however birth date is incorrect..

I was wondering why Lillian wasn't a Ward as was Isabella Irenw and so I searched to find all Wards with Fox maiden name and this is what I found (also on FreeBMD):


Births Mar 1937 (>99%)
Ward Gertrude L Fox Sheffield 9c 573

The reference numbers for both sets of records are the same, however, there are two sets of records for each of these children.

The 1939 Register has Lillian listed as a Dalton but Isabella Iirene is a Ward, it appears that both children's parents were Fred Ward and Amelia Fox.

Have you ever seen anything like this before?

Regards
Bruce

Thank you, Erica!

I would not have thought of the Register missing enlisted soldiers. Thank you.

On FreeBMD I just found Gertrude L Dalton born in March 1937, mother's maiden name is Fox. I am wondering if this may be Lillian Dalton listed in 1939 Register with Amelia Fox. Aunt Gertrude Lillian always went by Lillian. I also wonder if this is Fred Ward's daughter and it also acknowledges he was born Fred Dalton.

Thoughts?

Regards
Bruce

1939

Pearson Household (6 People)
65 Daisy Walk , Sheffield C.B., Yorkshire (West Riding), England


Gertrude L Pearson 22 Nov 1879 Female Unpaid D Duties Widowed 1 1
George H Pearson 05 Jul 1905 Male Spiral Spring Maker Married 1 2
Ada Pearson 09 May 1909 Female Ferruler - Wood Tu? Single 1 3
Ethel Bagshaw (Pearson) 07 Jul 1913 Female Ferruler - Wood Tu? Single 1 4
Stanley Pearson 18 Jan 1919 Male Bau?ter Leu?ry T Single 1 5
Edith S Buchell 13 Apr 1912 Female Spoon & Pork Packer Cuttery Wareho Married 1 6

Fred could have enlisted, in which case he would not be recorded, as 1939 was a register of civilians

I should have explained - Charles lived with many Families over the years. He lived with his sister, Lillian's brother in law. The last address I had before 1939 Charles was living with his sister, Lillian (Gertrude Lillian Pearson) in 1919. In 1939 I believe Lillian was a widow but I cannot find her 1939 Register record unless she may have provided an incorrect birth date.
It is assumed that the redacted record is for Fred Ward, but he was born in 1901 and so I wonder why that record would be redacted. Btw, I believe that Fred was born Fred Dalton. I found a birth record for Fred Dalton born to mothers maiden name=Ash, but never found a birth record for Fred Ward. I believe that Fred's name was changed after his birth without any formality when Alice Dalton started living with William Ward (no record of any marriage ever for Alice).
The other mystery in the 1939 Register record is Lillian Dalton which seems to have a G marked after Lilian, and I assume may be for middle name Gertrude, named after Gertrude Lillian Pearson who was the person everyone leaned on during difficult times. I can't find a birth record for Lillian Dalton in 1935 that would indicate mother's maiden name, a clue that may explain the redacted record?
So I am wondering if the redacted record in 1939 Register is not Fred Ward, but someone else who could possibly be still living. Perhaps another Dalton child?

Any thoughts?

Bruce

He would have had to live with whoever could - and would - accommodate him.

This 1939 Register record is still a mystery to me.....

Ward Household (5 People)
28 Lambert Street , Sheffield C.B., Yorkshire (West Riding), England


Charles Dalton 10 Jan 1883 Male Colliery Hewer Single 133 2
Amelia Ward 03 Oct 1898 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Mill Hand Retired Married 133 1
Irene Noonan (Thornhill,Ward) 01 Jul 1923 Female Mirror Polisher Single 133 3
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Lillian (G) Brady (Dalton) 13 Feb 1935 Female Under School Age Single 133 5

To the best of my knowledge Charles Dalton never married but it seems odd that he would live with Fred Ward who was 18 years younger. It may have been what happened but I would see him living with his other siblings before his half brother, Fred.
The other mystery is Lillian Dalton. I wonder who her parents may be. I can't find a birth record on FreeBmd.