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The 1939 reg doesnt throw anything up by using
female and dob there are 264 females all different names.!

Births that May birth come into play are 8 in total in Lancashire..
one is listed with surname and mmn commonly Irish.

But if PB is with the Miles under a closed record which seems likey as all their children seemed married then it will be a battle to get it opened.

PM sent to Rita regarding childens access of a deceased adoptee.

Rita I wonder if your mother was bapt at St Mary RC in Eccles as a baby/child.?but in her birth surname......her christian names couldnt legally be changed till formal adoption had taken place.

Just for info, Florence in the 1911 census was born abt 1886, and since the death record says the same thing, I think the date of birth in 1939 is the incorrect one:

Name: Florence Miles
Age in 1911: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: All Saints, Herefordshire, England

Rita do you know that other person who has Florence in their tree? Click here to see:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/tree/results/bowcott/florence?&yearofbirth=1886

the person may not be closely related, but it's always worth asking.

Thank you

Juvenile court of SALFORD

I have just checked birth cert again and it says :

Place of Birth: England

Rita there isnt a problem reading and understanding what you write,,,,,,so Patricia didnt go into a home because her adoptive parents died but have been because becuase of their ages to cope.they were by the guidelines back then way above age to adopt a baby or child.

The certificate even a short one would still state a place of birth even with a completley new name,,,,,so England doesnt rally help pin point an area........

was the magistrates/juvenilecourt on the adoption cert in Lancashire.?

The Miles had (edit )6 children that I can work out,,,,,,,Susan was with Gransmother Susan Bowcott in 1911 and the others were on the next page same place.

Violet Emily 1905/6-----1994.?
Joseph R 1910.
Albert C 1909.
Susan M 1904.
Arthur HL,1915
Muriel G 1914.

I went on what was on the 1939 register too.

Please excuse the way I am giving information. I have Asperger's (autism) so I know what I need to say and sometimes assume that other people know what I am on about!

I will try and explain it all.

My Mother was born 13 May 1937, she was adopted by Albert and Florence Miles on 4 April 1940.

She found out she was adopted at age 9 and who she thought was Uncle Paddy was actually her father. She was told her Mother died in childbirth.

Then, when she was 12 the Miles's put her in an orphanage. I don't know why, I have only just found this out.

Her birth cert just says England for place of birth. She told me she was born in Ancoats. Also that her parents were Irish. I think their background was Londonderry.

When I looked at 1939 register I noticed Arthur H L and looked for his birth, that is how I found out Florence Miles was Florence Bowcott.

I just went by DOB given 1939 register

Albert -1/10/1882.

Florence 28/2/1888..

Question for Rita,

**Who went into an orphanage aged 12 when their mother died,?**

On the short birth certificate for Patricia what does it give for the place of birth.?

Sorry Kay, I must have confused you. The actual dob is 1886, not 1888 as Rita has in her tree

We don't seem to know how Rita knows that Florence Bowcott is the right person, but her birth matches the death in question earlier

Births Jun 1886
BOWCOTT Florence Hereford 6a 504

Name: Florence Miles
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Dec 1968
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Ludlow
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 9a
Page: 123

Someone else has that Florence (born Hereford 1886) in their tree with the *correct* birth date, 1886.

Who else has Florence Bowcott on their tree?

Gosh, thank you for the comments above, it all helps me greatly.

I have a birth certificate but not a full one but it matches with the adoption cert as in serial numbers are the same.

As my Mother died in France I don't know if they have a death cert. I just have a report from the hospital but I will ask my Father. He is in the middle of moving from France to UK.

Rita

I know Kay, re Patricia's DOB, but I'm thinking of how to put together a paper chain to establish -- if the 'closed' record in 1939 might be Patricia, in order to get it opened -- that Patricia is deceased.

Matching the DOB to the one in the 1939 record - by an official document - would be a good start.

A birth certificate would be perfect ... but that's the one thing we don't have :-D

Rita gave DOB as.

13 May 37.

that was my next question Kay, the address, I was just about to do a narrowing-down free search :-)

Seems like them all right.


I wonder whether if Patricia's death certificate gives a date of birth, and hopefully Patricia was her original name, and the adoption papers, and the fact that the date of birth would be in the 1939 register ... Rita could establish a chain of proof that Patricia is deceased and she is family ... to get the record opened.

If Patricia is recorded there, possibly under her birth surname, that would be the magic key.

16- Cambell Road.Eccles MB Lancashire.

seems a good match.

There is one closed record..which could be another child or even PB??but I doubt it coulld be opened as any name change wont show in 1939 and could still be in a birth surname or names..?

Rita you have in your tree at this site

*** Florence May Bowcott 1888 ***


I guess it wasn't worth mentioning to us at any time that you had this information somehow?

Someone else has that person in their tree.



Also, there were two births to the Pile-Miles marriage in the 1940s that can be found at Freebmd.

well this is that Susan's second marriage it seems

Marriages Sep 1943
Lloyd Susan Pile Barton 8c 1303
Pile Tom Lloyd Barton 8c 1303

Name: Susan May Pile
Birth Date: 7 May 1905
Date of Registration: Feb 1984
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Kington
Inferred County: Herefordshire, Radnorshire
Volume: 29
Page: 562

If only we had any idea whether the family is the one!


Kay is there an address for the household?



1911

Name: Susan Miles
Age in 1911: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1906
Relation to Head: Grandaughter (Granddaughter)
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Wellington, Herefordshire, England

Name: Susan Bowcott
Age in 1911: 67
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
>>Birth Place: Stoke Prior, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Dinmore Wellington
County/Island: Herefordshire


hm, a Worcestershire connection, looks possible?

and that gives us the surname for this Florence, thus the marriage

Marriages Sep 1904
Bowcott Florence Hereford 6a
Miles Albert Hereford 6a 1123


this would be that Florence's birth and it would match with the death in Shropshire

Births Jun 1886
BOWCOTT Florence Hereford 6a 504

1939 ,
One was a son,,, bn 1915.


and a woman who appears as a lodger ? born 7 May 1905,surname Lloyd and a status is.W==widow.?,her surname then changed in 1943 to Pile or was formally ,which I dont think is correct,.
She appears to be the daughter of Albert and Florence.
------------------------------------------------
Edit=

Albert and Florence married in 1904 in Herford,

Miles Susan May bn 1905 Hereford reg J/1/4===

Marriage>?
Marriages Mar 1929 (>99%)


**Myles** Susan M Lloyd Barton I. 8c 949



--------------------------------------------------------------



Albert dob.1st Oct 1882,a bricklayer,
Florence 28th Feb 1888.

Unfortunately I don't know Paddy's name. I do know she was Irish/English though.

There is this household in the 1939 register

Miles Household Eccles M.B., Lancashire, England

Albert Miles 1882
Florence Miles 1888
2 more people who are officially closed

Closed records indicate people who were children at the time whose death was not identified before 1991 when updates to the register stopped.
(edit - apparently it only said 'closed' to me because I don't have a current subscription, not because they were children)

If that was your Miles couple, then possibly one of them is your mother, if she lived with them before the adoption.

My subscription has expired so I can't check other details, e.g. this Albert's occupation and the couple's exact birth dates, but someone else will be able to do that.



'who she thought was her uncle Paddy was actually her Father.'

do you have an actual name for Paddy?? His surname would be the same as her father's of course. I assume you don't know it ...

but this indicates that she was in touch with her father's family when she was young, apparently.

I have a bit of an update with this story.

It was actually Winton that they lived not Swinton.

To recap, she was adopted in 1940 and stayed at that address until 1945/46 where it seems they left. This must be when they moved to Ludlow area.

When she was 12 she was put in an orphanage! Which would be around 1949.

Apparently her Mother died in childbirth. She found out she was adopted age 9 and who she thought was her uncle Paddy was actually her Father.

You could try e-mailing Ludlow Library to see if they have historical electoral registers for the area. If you supply the address given on your mother's military file, and the years you are interested in, they may look it up for you. There could be other people at the same address which might provide you with further clues.

[email protected]

http://new.shropshire.gov.uk/libraries/find-a-library/ludlow-library/

You could also try Manchester Central Library to see if they can give you details on the Campbell Road address.

This is from the Manchester Central Library Website:

"Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society volunteers are available at the Central Library Family History Help Desk Monday to Friday from 10.30am to 3.30pm. Help Desk volunteers are able to provide family history advice and assistance, whether your ancestors came from Greater Manchester or from further afield. "

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/centrallibrary