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It also says Campbell Road on Adoption cert so is Swinton..

does anybody know their Manchester registration geography?

there are two possible births in the april-june quarter of 1937, one in Manchester South and one in Manchester north

a Patricia B and a Patricia B M (the second one has some obvious Irish in the surnames, but then that isn't uncommon in that area)

ah ... Patricia B M married, but there is no further record of the Patricia B (marriage or death) ... is this a possibility??


this is the death you are looking at?

Name: Florence M Miles
Birth Date: abt 1893
Date of Registration: Dec 1968
Age at Death: 75
Registration district: Chippenham
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 7c
Page: 704

there doesn't seem to be an Albert Miles death in the vicinity

unfortunately the parents of the Patricia B married in Manchester, and had two other children, and there is no twin for that birth

Ancoats would have been in Manchester North registration district in 1937.

Rose

No it is the Florence Miles death in Ludlow, Shropshire, 1968

oops Rita I thought I had posted this (below) last night but it's still here!

Rita, I intentionally did not mention the surnames involved because this is the internet and anyone could see this discussion, and it isn't really fair to talk about people behind their backs in public (especially if they are not even connected)

I think that daughter's marriage is recorded as Patricia V. She then remarried and is on the current electoral roll.

++++++++++++

I had missed the reference to Shropshire on the previous page so this is the death Rita was looking at

Name: Florence Miles
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Dec 1968
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Ludlow
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 9a
Page: 123

no middle name though

and again no Albert death in the vicinity

in 1937 she would have been about 51 ... but that really is quite old to adopt a young child

was your saying that she was 51 when she adopted based on that death record? ... that would be going at things a little backwards :-)



I've just scanned at freebmd through the entire list of births in Q2 1937 in Manchester North (thanks Rose) and I see only 3 sets of female twins, surnames for anyone else who wants to look

McL*
Wal*
Woo*

there are no deaths there that quarter for any of those surnames (mother said to have died in childbirth)

For the McL* twins, I found the death of one in married name (unusual given names) but for the other no marriage or death

there is no marriage to match the surnames and there are no other births to the couple

however it seems that the twin who died in 1982 married under a different surname i.e. not her birth surname

I can't see how that would connect up though as Patricia's twin is supposed to have stayed with her father

>> edit - also her birthdate was in June, so no match

it's so hard to get a handle on this ... Patricia's mother died in childbirth but Patricia was adopted at age 3 while her father kept her twin ...

Yes based on the death record but also something mum said "I think they adopted me to have someone to look after them in their old age"

You could try e-mailing Ludlow Library to see if they have historical electoral registers for the area. If you supply the address given on your mother's military file, and the years you are interested in, they may look it up for you. There could be other people at the same address which might provide you with further clues.

[email protected]

http://new.shropshire.gov.uk/libraries/find-a-library/ludlow-library/

You could also try Manchester Central Library to see if they can give you details on the Campbell Road address.

This is from the Manchester Central Library Website:

"Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society volunteers are available at the Central Library Family History Help Desk Monday to Friday from 10.30am to 3.30pm. Help Desk volunteers are able to provide family history advice and assistance, whether your ancestors came from Greater Manchester or from further afield. "

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/centrallibrary

I have a bit of an update with this story.

It was actually Winton that they lived not Swinton.

To recap, she was adopted in 1940 and stayed at that address until 1945/46 where it seems they left. This must be when they moved to Ludlow area.

When she was 12 she was put in an orphanage! Which would be around 1949.

Apparently her Mother died in childbirth. She found out she was adopted age 9 and who she thought was her uncle Paddy was actually her Father.

There is this household in the 1939 register

Miles Household Eccles M.B., Lancashire, England

Albert Miles 1882
Florence Miles 1888
2 more people who are officially closed

Closed records indicate people who were children at the time whose death was not identified before 1991 when updates to the register stopped.
(edit - apparently it only said 'closed' to me because I don't have a current subscription, not because they were children)

If that was your Miles couple, then possibly one of them is your mother, if she lived with them before the adoption.

My subscription has expired so I can't check other details, e.g. this Albert's occupation and the couple's exact birth dates, but someone else will be able to do that.



'who she thought was her uncle Paddy was actually her Father.'

do you have an actual name for Paddy?? His surname would be the same as her father's of course. I assume you don't know it ...

but this indicates that she was in touch with her father's family when she was young, apparently.

Unfortunately I don't know Paddy's name. I do know she was Irish/English though.

1939 ,
One was a son,,, bn 1915.


and a woman who appears as a lodger ? born 7 May 1905,surname Lloyd and a status is.W==widow.?,her surname then changed in 1943 to Pile or was formally ,which I dont think is correct,.
She appears to be the daughter of Albert and Florence.
------------------------------------------------
Edit=

Albert and Florence married in 1904 in Herford,

Miles Susan May bn 1905 Hereford reg J/1/4===

Marriage>?
Marriages Mar 1929 (>99%)


**Myles** Susan M Lloyd Barton I. 8c 949



--------------------------------------------------------------



Albert dob.1st Oct 1882,a bricklayer,
Florence 28th Feb 1888.

well this is that Susan's second marriage it seems

Marriages Sep 1943
Lloyd Susan Pile Barton 8c 1303
Pile Tom Lloyd Barton 8c 1303

Name: Susan May Pile
Birth Date: 7 May 1905
Date of Registration: Feb 1984
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Kington
Inferred County: Herefordshire, Radnorshire
Volume: 29
Page: 562

If only we had any idea whether the family is the one!


Kay is there an address for the household?



1911

Name: Susan Miles
Age in 1911: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1906
Relation to Head: Grandaughter (Granddaughter)
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Wellington, Herefordshire, England

Name: Susan Bowcott
Age in 1911: 67
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
>>Birth Place: Stoke Prior, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Dinmore Wellington
County/Island: Herefordshire


hm, a Worcestershire connection, looks possible?

and that gives us the surname for this Florence, thus the marriage

Marriages Sep 1904
Bowcott Florence Hereford 6a
Miles Albert Hereford 6a 1123


this would be that Florence's birth and it would match with the death in Shropshire

Births Jun 1886
BOWCOTT Florence Hereford 6a 504

Rita you have in your tree at this site

*** Florence May Bowcott 1888 ***


I guess it wasn't worth mentioning to us at any time that you had this information somehow?

Someone else has that person in their tree.



Also, there were two births to the Pile-Miles marriage in the 1940s that can be found at Freebmd.

16- Cambell Road.Eccles MB Lancashire.

seems a good match.

There is one closed record..which could be another child or even PB??but I doubt it coulld be opened as any name change wont show in 1939 and could still be in a birth surname or names..?

that was my next question Kay, the address, I was just about to do a narrowing-down free search :-)

Seems like them all right.


I wonder whether if Patricia's death certificate gives a date of birth, and hopefully Patricia was her original name, and the adoption papers, and the fact that the date of birth would be in the 1939 register ... Rita could establish a chain of proof that Patricia is deceased and she is family ... to get the record opened.

If Patricia is recorded there, possibly under her birth surname, that would be the magic key.

Rita gave DOB as.

13 May 37.

I know Kay, re Patricia's DOB, but I'm thinking of how to put together a paper chain to establish -- if the 'closed' record in 1939 might be Patricia, in order to get it opened -- that Patricia is deceased.

Matching the DOB to the one in the 1939 record - by an official document - would be a good start.

A birth certificate would be perfect ... but that's the one thing we don't have :-D

Gosh, thank you for the comments above, it all helps me greatly.

I have a birth certificate but not a full one but it matches with the adoption cert as in serial numbers are the same.

As my Mother died in France I don't know if they have a death cert. I just have a report from the hospital but I will ask my Father. He is in the middle of moving from France to UK.

Rita

Who else has Florence Bowcott on their tree?