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we assumed it was campbells apparently he was a lumberjack , i dont even know how old he was ,it seems he was a very busy chap just a shame he couldnt tell someone his real name before he died :-(

Harry Campbell 1885 departed Liverpool in 1905
that would make him 20 but i cant view so cant see if he was on his own or not
J Harry Campbell 1884 departed Queenstown 1909
it appears one going and one coming back
could you have a look for me please :-)

Going to Indiana, last residence County Down, single:
Harry Campbell
Arrival Date: 22 Apr 1905
Birth Year: abt 1885
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race-
/Nationality: American
Port of departure: Liverpool, England
Port of arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Baltic

james campbell sophia evans, campbell
c 1859 1863
county durham scotland
married 1882
isabella campbell
county durham
1857

could someone check out these please
james is in yhe 1881 census in middlesbrough
james and sophia are in 1891 and 1901 in middlesbrough
james is in 1911 in middlesbrough
i cant see if there were any children for either james or isabella
manythanks

1891 England Census
James Campbell Age: 32 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sophia Campbell
Gender: Male Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England
Civil parish: Middlesborough Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Middlesborough County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Registration district: Middlesbrough Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 32 Piece: 4009 Folio: 13 Page Number: 20
James Campbell 32
Sophia Campbell 28
Archibald Campbell 8
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 4009; Folio: 13; Page: 20; GSU roll: 6099119.

1901 England Census
James Campbell Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sophia Campbell
Gender: Male Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England
Civil parish: Middlesbrough Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Middlesbrough County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Registration district: Middlesbrough Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 69 Household schedule number: 86 Piece: 4582 Folio: 108 Page Number: 15
James Campbell 42
Sophia Campbell 38
Archibald Campbell 18 journalist
James W Campbell 1
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4582; Folio: 108; Page: 15.

The James Campbell born 1859, living in Middlesbrough in 1911, has been married to Mary for 27 years, and was born 'County Durham Mankwearmouth'

If you want children for Isabella Campbell, who do you think she married?

thankyou im trying to check the james and sophia line theres only two i can find the other one is the bottom of the country, so i dont think they fit
that just leaves scotland ,which is harder as there are loads of james and sophia campbell x :-S

theres a isabella campbell 1857 married to william burnlees in berwick they married
1881 10b 577

harry campbell 1886 croydon last quarter could this be my harry

I am so confused by all this I should probably stay away :-)

I especially don't understand the lack of answers to some important questions -
how the exact date of Harry's birth is known
whether the death in Colchester was this Harry
Do you have that death certificate and does it somehow confirm this?

But just for interest, there actually was a 25-yr-old Harry Campbell lumberman in British Columbia Canada in the 1911 census

you can see the original image here

http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=48254

but it says he was born in March 1886 in NB which is the province of New Brunswick.

There were 2 Harry Campbells in NB in 1901 (also at that site) of around the right age but they have exact birthdates given in 1884 and 1885 that do not match.

NB records which are here

http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/VISSE/Default.aspx?culture=en-CA

show the births of those two Harrys but no Harry or Harold or Henry born there in 1886.

But then he married in England in the summer of 1912 so that seems maybe unlikely to be him.

You say he was in the British military as a drummer boy from age 12 (that would have been about 1898 if he was born in 1886) and in the Boer war, does this mean you have seen his military records or is this oral history? My grandfather told of being a drummer boy in Egypt at 13 but from what I have seen in his actual military record that seems to be a tall tale, although he did sign up at a young age. So oral history might not be reliable.

You say he was in the first World War and then retired, but he would have been only in his 30s, early to retire unless he was disabled. Is there an occupation on his 1912 marriage certificate?

It is so helpful to know what is actual fact, and all of the actual facts, and of course it is also useful to know what the stories are, but we have to know which is which. :-)

looking at the 1901 census that Reggie posted for Benjamin

Wm Campbell 28
Agnes Campbell 36
Wm J Campbell 8
Benjamin Campbell 5
Jessie Campbell 3
David G Campbell 1
John Inglis 19

it seems unlikely that William Campbell aged 28 had a son who would have been 15 or 16 by then ... but Agnes could have had.

I would strongly suggest going to http://scotlandspeople.gov.uk
and paying to see the details of Benjamin's birth.

On a quick free search, there were 3 births with that name 1894-1896.
By narrowing that down, there was 1 birth in Stirlingshire in 1895.
That would give you both parents' full names and the details of their marriage.
If that was in fact Harry's brother Benjamin, he may have been a half-brother and Harry may have been born to mother Agnes either before marriage or to a first marriage.
Once you have the parents' details you could look for a birth for Harry as a child of Agnes.

There were 4 William Campbell + Agnes marriage in Stirlingshire 1880-1901.
If we narrow that to 1890-1893, looking at the ages of the children in 1901 ... there were three.
In any event, knowing Benjamin's mother's name from his birth certificate would hopefully find you the marriage certificate. And it would tell you whether Agnes was previously married or not as well.

I looked in censuses for an Agnes born in Gartmore which is what the 1901 transcription says, but had no luck. (Agnes McPherson is still single in 1901.) Agnes might have understated her age in 1901 being considerably older than William ...

The 1871 census does have an Agnes born in Gartmore about 1859 but I doubt that her name was actually Parkshin, and she is living in Glasgow.

William Campbell appears to have been a servant in St Ninians Sterlinghire in 1891.
There was a William Campbell + Agnes marriage in St Ninians in 1892.

so I ran through the alphabet for female surnames that begin with ... and I had to do it twice because I got to 's' the first time around and realized it had reset itself to exact surnames somehow so I started over ... and of course the right answer was 's'. William Campbell married Agnes S in St Ninians in 1892.

Anyway, Agnes's surname for the marriage starts with Se ...
In 1891 there was an Agnes Seton in St Ninians born about 1867.
Seton was indeed the name on the William Campbell + Agnes marriage in 1892.

No Harry Seton birth.

the things we insomniacs will do ...

Agnes Seton was in the 1871, 1881 and 1891 census in St Ninians with her parents and no children.

Looking like that Benjamin Campbell was not the brother of our Harry ... except that maybe Harry's birth was registered under another surname, but if so where was he in 1891.

thank you,harry campbell died 1962,he married dorothy arnold in 1912 spelling of campbell was cambell,he was in the boer war as a drummer boy 1901,1902,and was signed out for being under age when he signed up ,by his father (james) but really he could have been any member of his family.
family recall him being in trouble as a child and he ran away to join the army,but they could have been hard up and it was better to send him than feed him ,between 1902 and 1912 he was sent to family in canada,he said he was a lumber jack,
he was gassed in the war and he and dorothy retired to walton on the naze because it was better for his lungs .we have no war records for ww1 as they were burnt in the blitz .
i have tryed to find him but keep coming up with nothing .
he said his aunt isabell tried to buy his first son with 3 gold sovereigns,he also said his mother was called sophia or like
and that he was related to robert the bruce and colin campbell ( the thin red line )
would he have had this knowledge from family or could he have been a good reader ,mum said he didnt sound scottish even though he said he came from the borders
i really dont think im going to find him

harry was 76 when he died in 1962 he was 26 on his marriage cert in 1912 so he should have been born in 1886 but to be fair it could be either 1885 or 1887 given that they were usually wrong,the canadian part is interesting but cant fit it to him with out every thing else being right :-S

there is a harry campbell born in croydon in 1886 the last quarter which could be 23 dec ,maybe im looking further afield now

'he was in the boer war as a drummer boy 1901,1902'

do you have these records or is this family story?

It really is important that you say what the source of information is.

Have you actually looked at any passenger records that could be Harry?

for instance, findmypast has a H Campbell of unknown age travelling from Liverpool to Montreal in 1902.

It really is quite possible that he went to family in New Brunswick (lots of Scots there) and then when he was of an age he went west for work, and he could be that Harry in the 1911 census.

also Jennifer, rather than repeat things you have said, have you looked at information posted and thought about it?

of course things won't 'fit' automatically, they are usually things to investigate ...


by the way I am probably not the only one still trying to understand how you worked out the exact date of birth of 23 dec 1886 from his age at death and his age at marriage ... maybe you could actually say here what exact date he married and what date he died.

marriage cert counties of rotherham and york
1912
thirteenth july
harry cambell 26years pit sinker the huts new orchard thurcroft
father jesse cambell licensed victualler

dorothy arnold 19 no proffesion alma cottages
father richard arnold coal miner

hand written the 13th has been changed to the 15th and a p has been added to cam(p)bell.
i have got his death cert but cant find it im still looking though

second battalion royal highlanders
5473 rank drmr campbell h( pte) medals for
cape colony, orange free state,s africa 1 ,s africa 2 if entitled to kings s a medal yes remarks to 1st black watch
he was henry in the army then

dated the 25 oct 1920 alexander palace .wood green .n 22
machine gun corps
roll of honor
154345 pte cambell harry(again) changed by the army to campbell
20423.w york r .pte, 154345 .m.g.c
thats all i can find at the moment

Well here's a possible stroke of good and bad luck.

1911 census, I searched for postal address 'huts' and keyword 'rotherham'.
There are several addresses with that word in them but one of particular interest:

Civil Parish: Laughton en le Morthen
Street Address: New Orchard Huts, Via Wickersley Rotherham

So of course I went to the page to check what the postal address entered by the householder actually says ... and got to the bottom of the long list of names ... and it says [Continue on page 2.].

Problem is there doesn't seem to be a page 2.

The household is a colliery owner (Duncon as transcribed by Anc'y), his family, a couple of visitors, and a load of boarders, all identified as general labourers and apparently working for the colliery owner. They come from all over, several from Ireland.

Is it likely that Harry had been at that place of residence in that employ for 18 months before his marriage?

Could there be a missing page that he is on? The page is completely full so it is quite possible there was another page.

The enumerator has written the address as what looks to me like
New Orchard Huts
The Wickersley
Rotherham

The preceding household has a similar problem - although there are only 7 people, it is also on a page that says [Continue on page 2.] instead of having the housholder's signature and address at the bottom.


Richard Arnold, Dorothy's father, was a pit sinker in 1911:

Name: Richard Arnold
Age in 1911: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish: Bramley
County/Island: Yorkshire-West Riding
Country: England
Street Address: Wadsworth Rd Bramley
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Pit Sinker

Richard Arnold 44
Margaret Arnold 32
Dorothy Arnold 17
Arthur Arnold 10


of course the other explanation is that Harry was in Canada in 1911 :-D


Ah, he was Henry in the army. Yes well that was one of the obvious choices for a 'real' name but it would have been nice to know that to start.

now then were getting somewhere ,mum said that harry met dorothy working with a lot of irish navvies these sound like the ones you mentioned ,she was the cook so how to find page 2 ,i have had this problem before ,but we dont know any names on it to get it ,im thinking he was younger when he went to canada so he has to be here somewhere,
mum said she has his death cert but cant recall anything useful on it so i said ill have a look at it next time i see her .many thanks for your help
:-D

no guarantee there was a page 2, it just seems a little odd. But if he wasn't there in 1911, I would say that's definitely where he was when he married, since both the address and the description fit the facts on the marriage certificate and the family story.

I tried wildcard searches here

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?

to see who was in the household with the Dunson family (I had to figure out what they were called there first) in Orchard Huts as the place of residence, but there was no surname starting with C there either. Also just searched for variations of Harry himself in Orchard Huts but no luck.

If you have a subscription you can look at the page.

the household looks like this at Ancestry

Name: William Duncon
Age in 1911: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Portishead, Somersetshire, England
Civil Parish: Laughton en le Morthen
Street Address: New Orchard Huts, Via Wickersley Rotherham
William Duncon 34
Bertha Duncon 54
Fredrick Duncon 36
Samuel Duncon 24
George Duncon 18
James Duncon 16
Emley Kerslake 31
Albert Kerslake 4
Albert Heywood 28
William Turnes 36
Rubin Gulliver 55
Richard Lily 48
A Douthwaite 19
John Mackdonald 55
Patsey Oake 25
Myrel Wary 41
John Many 44
James Smany 37
Andrew Bones 25
George Weigh 20

You can contact Ancestry to ask about a missing page. You might get an answer. I don't know how you go about seeing the original otherwise because I know some data on the pages is still protected so you can't consult the originals I think.