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How interesting about your family member. I think it timely that he did not reach Tasmania.

Have recently had a holiday there and visited Port Arthur - the worst place to be sent whatever you did to be imprisoned. It was so sad to visit such a place.

Times were harsh and people so judgemental, we should be thankful for the times in which we live.

Reggie has given a lot of information, which will be helpful to your search.

Good luck again.

Sappho.

Sappho,
Actually it was a person at Gloucester records office that said that about my un-moralistic family, and I agree with you there were many ordinary folk that were in the same position as most of my family members were and it is only when you become an adult or enter into genealogy that you find these things out, as you say there were many secrets, and any adult that I was introduced too was always Uncle this and Aunty that. My ggg grandfather was so desparate for his family that he broke into a house in Berkeley and stole 9 gold sovereigns, which when caught he was sentenced to death, but was reprived at the last minute and was to be sent to Tasmania, but died of some unknown ailment before he left. So you could say that this was the ultimate penalty for being poor.

What could be more un-moralistic in modern times than going to a wedding and the bride and groom are at the church with their first child by their side as my daughter has just done this April past. I do believe that nowadays unless you feel that you would always stick to the rule book it does not really matter. Nice to hear your comments,

Regards Keith

Keith,

It is not only your family where parents lived together and had numerous children and then married at a later stage. We think it a modern thing to live together, but it is certainly not.

In 1908 an Act was passed where the Old Age Pension could be claimed by people of good character, etc. This caused people who had lived happily together and had children to seek a marriage licence thinking this would put them in a good light to obtain the Old Age Pension.

There are several in my family tree who did this; I've heard of many others and it would be more common than most people imagine.

So they were not so un-moralistic as it was the average family in the same position. It was a secret! My gt. grandmother was married to my gt. grandfather and my grandad was born of that marriage, but gt. grandfather died aged 26 years. My gt. grandmother lived with her second husband for many years, had 6 children and then they married. They also lied about their ages to fit the birth of their children as near as they could. I think it a hoot and I am sure they never expected to have caused such problems later on for the descendants.

Good luck with your family tree.

Sappho

If anyone is researching this woman, and recording her details correctly, she will be in his/her tree as Elizabeth Brown

You could at least look!

You say Elizabeth was born in 1861....so she was legitimate, inasmuch as her parents married before she was born

You really should check your facts

Hello all,
Thank you for all your replies especially to Reggie who I have apologised to for an injustice to him some weeks ago, hopfully all is forgiven, however I did as most of you suggested and got a birth certificate from the GRO, which clearly states that Elizabeth was born in 1861, her father was George Brown and her mother was Mary Trotman. I have to mention that all the children of George Brown and my gg grandmother Mary were all illegitimate. I am inclined to agree with what most of you have said, that it will be most unlikely for someone to see the thread. My family during this period of the 19th century were as one person said a most un-moralistic
family. The reason why the Trotman name was maintained by the children is because George and Mary did not marry until after she had Elizabeth. If any of you want to see my tree, please let me know and I will make it available to you.


Regards Keith.

Your info about the marriage is NOT accurate


Marriages Dec 1860 (>99%)
Brown George Thornbury 6a 325
Tratman Mary Thornbury 6a 325

Name: Ellen Brown
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Granddaughter
Father's Name: George Brown
Mother's Name: Mary Brown
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Berkeley, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Alkington
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Thornbury
Sub-registration district: Almondsbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 5b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 7
Piece: 1957
Folio: 511
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
George Brown 67
George Brown 34
Mary Brown 34
John Brown 8
Joseph Brown 5
Mary Brown 3
Ellen Brown 2
George Trotman 15

Name: Ellen Brown Trotman
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1849
Registration district: Thornbury
Inferred County: Avon, Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 442

Have you tried to find out what happened to this particular Elizabeth after 1881? Your comment about her name 'if' she married would suggest that you have not! Perhaps you should.................

If she didn't marry and produce children, she can't be anyone's ancestor

1861

Name: George Brown
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Son
Spouse's Name: Mary Brown
Father's Name: George Brown
Gender: Male
Where born: Michaelwood, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Berkeley
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Thornbury
Sub-registration district: Berkeley
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 9
Piece: 1749
Folio: 42
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
George Brown 74
George Brown 44
Mary Brown 44
Ellen Brown 11
Thomas Brown 9
Lera Brown 7
Eliza Brown 5
Ann Brown 3

Ancestry links THIS 1871 to the girl in 1881


Name: Elizabeth Brown
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George Brown
Gender: Female
Where born: Berkeley, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Berkeley
Ecclesiastical parish: Berkeley
Town: Michaelwood
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Thornbury
Sub-registration district: Berkeley
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 64
Piece: 2589
Folio: 44
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
George Brown 54............married, occ: Platelayer
Thomas Brown 18
Eliza Brown 16
Annie Brown 12
Elizabeth Brown 9

Unless you have Elizabeth's birth cert, you cannot possibly know that George Brown was her father, or, indeed, that Mary Trotman was her mother.

Have you a record of the family in 1871?

If not, how did you deduce that the girl found in 1881 is the daughter of Mary Trotman?

Where did the 1866 marriage take place?

Please post the GRO index info.............

Have you got Elizabeth Brown, 1861, Alkington, in your tree, or is she 'labelled' differently?
Was she registered at birth as Elizabeth Trotman?
Thanks

Added:
Is this her birth, if so, are you sure her Mother was Trotman?
Births Sep 1861
BROWN Elizabeth Thornbury 6a 179

She is from 'Berkley, Gloucestershire' in 1881

The names in the trees would be the name at birth

The chances of anyone noticing this thread in the near future who may have her in their tree is highly unlikely

Thanks Jax, the problem is if Elizabeth married then her name would have changed, I can really only rely on someone seeing the thread.

Keith

Try the search trees for any connections...if you find a match you can try to make contact

I am trying to locate any person named Brown as spelt or other relation who thinks that Elizabeth Brown was their ancestor. She was born in White Hall Alkington South Gloucestershire in 1861 Her parents were George Brown and Mary Trotman they did not marry until 1866. Elizabeth moved to Lambeth in London, called Surrey in 1881 census, and worked as a Servant in a drapers shop. The owner of the shop also came from Gloucestershire so maybe he asked Elizabeth to go with him. I know this is a shot in the dark, but here's hoping.

Keith.