General Chat

A biblical scholar says he woke up Friday morning convinced he must wade into the blood battle in British Columbia involving four babies, their Jehovah's Witness parents, their church and the government.

Religious scholars have evaded the Jehovah's Witness blood issue because they didn't believe it had academic merit, but it's a story that must be told, said Prof. Michael Duggan, who teaches biblical literature at St. Mary's University College in Calgary.

Duggan said he's been in Alberta hospitals telling doctors his academic perspective on what the Bible says about blood and what many Jehovah's Witnesses believe the biblical scriptures say about blood.

But the message needs to be made more public, he said.

"The point that I make to the physicians is none of these texts has to do with human blood," said Duggan. "Certainly, they never had to do with transfusions."

"What they have to do with is the handling of animals that are slaughtered and the cooking and the procedures in cooking the meat so as to be free of contamination and disease."

Four babies fighting for their survival in a Vancouver hospital are at the centre of a debate about religious freedom and the power of the government to protect its citizens.

The babies are the surviving sextuplets born almost three months' premature in Vancouver last month. Two of the six babies have died.

The parents are Jehovah's Witnesses who say they were horrified when the government seized custody of three of their children and gave two of them blood transfusions, a procedure their religion forbids.

The B.C. government said it was obligated by law to temporarily seize the babies and administer the blood transfusions for health reasons against the wishes of their parents.

Last week, the government took custody of three of the remaining children so doctors could perform transfusions. The government withdrew a seizure order Wednesday and the parents regained custody.

But the government can legally move in again.

The group that speaks for Jehovah's Witnesses in Canada issued a statement that said hospitals in Canada and the United States have treated extremely premature infants without blood transfusions by taking smaller samples of blood and accepting lower hemoglobin levels, among other things.

Premature babies have extremely low blood volumes, are prone to anemia and require frequent blood tests.

When asked why the religious denomination refuses blood transfusions, spokesman Mark Ruge pointed to the Jehovah's Witnesses website.

On it, the organization cites Bible passages to back up the belief. They include Leviticus 17:10-14, which reads in part:

"And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

The group also cites Acts 15:19-20, which states that God's followers must "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

Duggan said the blood passages in the Hebrew Bible - Old Testament - often cited by Jehovah's Witnesses as their reasons to refuse blood transfusions are safe cooking instructions that date back to the 5th Century.

"That needs to be said," Duggan said. "The way the Jehovah's Witnesses read the biblical text is simply wrong."

The texts in the Hebrew Bible are mainly taken from Genesis 9:4-6 and from the book of Leviticus 17, he said.

"They speak about the life being in the blood, but the blood they are talking about is the blood of animals," Duggan said.

The case of the British Columbia sextuplets and other similar blood tranfusion battles in Alberta have him wanting to take on the Jehovah's Witnesses academically.

"I'm just concerned that people don't get victimized any more by this," Duggan said. "I mean this is life and death for people."

"It means I've got to write this article," he said. "As absurd as it seems to me to say this, I really do. I got up this morning realizing I have to do this."

A former Jehovah's Witness said the blood ban isn't always as strict as it appears.

Kerry Louderback-Wood, whose Jehovah's Witness mother died of a heart attack after refusing a blood transfusion late in her life, said the blood policy has shifted over the years.

Organ transplants weren't allowed in the 1960s, but they are now, she said.

Louderback-Wood, from Fort Myers, Florida, said the lives of the Vancouver babies should not be put at risk for a religious doctrine that has changed over the years and could likely change again.

Elisabeth M.

I am not a JW - just found the verse whilst reading a report on this issue :-)

Oh dear, don't start me on religion. Neither discuss religion or politics if you want to keep your friends.......but


Needless loss of a young life and two babes without a Mother. What God would want this?

Nanna-Moo ;-(

This afternoon I had a call from the blood transfusion service to say that I had cross matched with someone with cancer and would I donate platelets (I normally donate whole blood). I have of course agreed although it means a 5 hour return trip to Birmingham. I just thought of someone who is suffering and who needs my help. Surely I do not offend any God by doing this and likewise anyone accepting my gift does not offend anyones God. I am sorry but whilst I respect, absolutely, peoples faiths, I do not accept that doing whatever is needed to preserve the precious thing that is life can ever be wrong in the eyes of any God.

Once again religious lunatics cause unneccesary death and suffering in this world!

This is disgusting!

No correspondence will be entered into.

My cousin and his wife and Family are JWs

His eldest son decided (when an adult!) to leave the JW church.


They dissowned him!!

What the f****!

This is bound to be a subject which people feel strongly about. I don't imagine anyone could really sit on the fence on this one.
It is good that we can put our views forward without it becoming an unpleasant thread. I don't want to upset anyone but I do feel strongly about it.

I don't suppose anyone's opinion is likely to be changed but sometimes thinking about a topic helps to clarify your own beliefs about something.

I can't understand the beliefs held by this young mother but then there are many variations on religions which hold ideas I can't accept. I still think the natural bond between parent and child comes first before any dogma. I also still think these babies deserved a better start in life.

I'm sorry. I don't think this very young woman was heroic but very misguided. A belief which requires someone to throw away their life unnecessarily feels very wrong to me, particularly as this is about a Biblical interpretation which isn't held by the vast majority of Christians.

Sue

Adhering to personal beliefs is not necessarily heroic.

Congratuations everyone. We can never all agree on a subject as emotive as this but I'm amazed at how well this discussion has been handled.

Roxanne

Please accept my apologies I never intended to cause offence. I mentioned a comparison of war merely to draw the point that people go to war because they believe that it is the right thing to do for their fellow man, country and Queen. Those that lose their lives are considered heroic. This lady shouldn't be slated because her faith prevented her having a blood transfusion, she surely is also heroic for adhering to her convictions and beliefs. It's not easy to go to war in the knowledge that you may lose your life. Neither is it easy to adhere to your faith in the knowledge that possibly when a given situation arises it may result in the loss of your life.

You also mentioned the stance taken by JWs during WWII against the Third Reich, yet again many JWs lost their lives because they refused to serve in the military, they were detained, put in concentration camps, or imprisoned during the Holocaust.

From a Wikipedia article regarding this issue: 'Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany were persecuted between 1933 and 1945. Unlike Jews, homosexuals and Gypsies who were persecuted for racial, political and social reasons, Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted on religious ideological grounds. The Nazi government gave detained Jehovah's Witnesses the option if they were to renounce their faith, submit to the state authority, and support the German military they would be free to leave prison or the camps. Approximately 12,000 JWs were sent to concentration camps where they were forced to wear a purple triangle that specifically identified them as Jehovah's Witnesses. In the end, about 2,000 of their members who were incarcerated perished under the Nazi system.'

Getting back to the main issue, please have a look at particularly the www.noblood.org site - as I said earlier, this site is not a JW site although there may be JW surgeons working at the hospitals listed as having a bloodless surgery policy.

Once again Roxanne, please accept my apologies for any offence caused.

Lyn x

I actually live 10 mins drive away from where Emma lived and we knew nothing about what had happened to her until this morning when it was headlines on The Sun newspaper. There had been no mention of it in our local paper, Shropshire Star. I think that it has only caused an uproar because of publicity that has been caused by the Sun. (and yes I do read the Sun) My belief is that each to their own beliefs.
Helen

Difficult to reconcile the idea that you can never ever fight with the numerous battles fought in the name of the Old Testament God in the Bible.
So no-one died in the name of God at the Battle of Jericho? Samson didn't pull down the temple on top of all those Philistines?

I'm naturally a pacifist but if someone threatens my family then I'd fight to protect them.

I can't help feeling the JWs incarcerated in concentration camps in WW2 must have been pleased to see the Allies when they arrived to set them free.

My Girl Guides and I will be marching with the Union Flag to a local war memorial next Sunday. I shall be praying for all those (on all sides) who have died in conflicts and believing that the alternative history we might have lived through if the wars had not been fought would have been worse.

Sue

Lyn, With respect.

I find the comment about war rather offensive.
I hate war, but some wars had to be fought,
Im thinking of two in particular WW1 and WW11,Im dread to think what europe would be like if those wars had not been fought, by brave men and women.
Yes, I Think those Men and women were Heroic.
and I think your faith should be grateful too.
I think you will find that the Third Reich was very Anti J.W,so Im afraid without those wars you would not be free to practice your faith.

Saline solution may be OK when what is missing is volume but is not going to help if someone's haemoglobin level is very dangerously low.
Epo (Erythropoietin) does not always work to stimulate red cell production. My husband tried that.

I had 12 years of sitting in haematology departments while my husband underwent every treatment the doctors could think of. If blood transfusions could have been avoided then they would. Cancer patients need specially irradiated blood and it gets harder and harder to match the more they have.

Fortunately a new drug (unavailable 12 years ago) made a difference to my husband and he is now in remission. If we had been JWs then he would have died many years ago and left me bringing up our children alone.

Sue

Just to add to Sue Ms comment earlier: you're right Sue there are alternatives but you say these are more expensive when in fact it is the blood transfusion that is the most expensive - the blood has to be treated and cleaned and go through so many processes before and during its storage which makes it expensive. Saline soilution for example which as we know is salt water is extremely inexpensive as are the other alternatives in comparison to blood.


Another thought corssed my mind, it is acceptable for people to go to war in the name of god because man asks you to do so. Those that go to war and lose their lives are considered heroes. What parent wants to see their offspring killed in a war? Not many. But, those family members believe that it is what they should be doing for their country. Jehovah's witnesses would never go to war or join up any of the armed forces. They respect that life is sacred to God.
Lyn x

Dear all

I haven't read all of the posts on the thread but there are a few things that need explaining.

I know this is a very emotive subject when there is loss of life and especially of somebody who has left behind family and young children. I don't know the details of the case but as a JW I know there are many alternatives to blood transfusions that people are just not aware of.

One thing that hospitals can do is immediately replace the volume lost. Volume replacement can be accomplished without using whole blood or blood plasma. Various nonblood fluids are effective volume expanders. The simplest is saline (salt) solution, which is both inexpensive and compatible with our blood. There are also fluids with special properties, such as dextran, Haemaccel, and lactated Ringer's solution. Hetastarch (HES) is a newer volume expander, and "it can be safely recommended for those patients who object to blood products." Erythropoietin which is a natural chemical produced by the kidneys can also be given to stimulate the production of red blood cells.

This does not mean that JWs assert the right to die, on the contrary, JWs actively pursue quality care because they want to get well, they are convinced that obeying God's law on blood is wise, which view has a positive influence in nonblood surgery.

It is tragic when there is loss of life and we know that the press will focus on these cases. What is not heard are the thousands of operations that are carried out around the world every week without blood. Spinal surgery, heart bypass surgery, hip replacement surgery, heart/lung transplants and even brain surgery to name the 'biggies' have all been carried out successfully without blood even on standby.

If you want a complete and whole picture of the JW point of view regarding this issue, have a look at their website to check out the details: www.watchtower.org. Once there you can do a search for Blood transfusions.

A non JW site that may be of interest to many if you just want simple facts re blood transfusions in surgery is a site called www.noblood.org. This site details hospitals across USA that operate a bloodless surgery policy across the board. They do not have blood available or stored in the hospitals listed.

As I said before this is such an emotive subject but there really are always two sides to the story. Please remember that the media don't always give the full picture and that may be the case here. I hope this helps get a more balanced view on the subject. I have had personal experience of non blood surgery SAVING lives. If you want to know more about that or indeed if you have any questions feel free to PM me. I am not a medical expert but if I can, I will try and help.

I hope you have found this helpful, take care.

Lyn x x x x

My husband is alive because he has received hundreds of units of blood. A rare cancer meant he needed transfusions sometimes weekly for several years.
My sister would have died in childbirth if she hadn't received several units of blood.

I tried to be a donor but I wasn't allowed due to a circulatory problem but both of my daughters donate.

I shall be eternally grateful to the many many generous people who give blood and blood products.

Donated blood only lasts in the body for a few days (which is why it has to be transfused so often if your own red cells aren't being produced).

I can't quite see how anything either added or taken away from a human body makes any difference whatsoever to an immortal soul. We are what we eat but that part of us which survives death isn't changed by a donation of blood!

I feel very sad that two children have been so unnecessarily deprived of a mother. I believe we will have to account for our actions in an afterlife and I don't think that this will be considered the correct choice.

Politics and religion are two subjects guaranteed to cause arguments and on this I know where I stand. I wish I could say I respect the choice of this young woman but I'm afraid when it affects the lives of innocent others then I don't. It is actually making me feel really rather angry so I think I'll shut up.

Sue

How any one can put their religion first befotre their children is hard to understand...........
Those poor litle orphans !!
I know a lot of J W and they are all very nice and caring people always willing to help but This is awful.........

Totally agree H O C. To me, the bible is a book of parables not literals.

Sorry-can I add colour,caste or creed?