General Chat

Hi Lyn,Thanks for your reply.
Im still very confused about this, If Organ transplants are an Individual choice,why is blood not,Or is it?
If someone In your church decided to have a blood transfusion,what would happen,would the church excommunicate them?

surely If Organ transplants are allowed(which carry blood ) then blood should be an Individual choice too.
I have No problem with anyones personal beliefs and actions,but I do have a problem with people being told what they can and can not do.
If your own conscience allows it,why not the church.
After all your spirituality is a personal thing between you and the Almighty.

Bernard and Ann - your opinion and your entitled to have it!

Vivienne I know from my own experience how much research I did on this whole issue. Not many will know that Emma will not have been left to fend for herself when making this decision but that apart from family in the 'religion' or otherwise, there is a network of support that works closely with surgeons, consultants etc that would have done everything possible to do to ensure that Emma's steadfastness didn't result in the loss of her life. As you said, it's not just a case of ticking a box.

Thank you for your good wishes Vivienne, I am five and a half years post mastectomy and had my reconstruction nearly three years ago and yes it was the best thing I ever did. The boost to me following the surgery is immeasurable.

Lyn x

Dear Lyn,,
I know that Emma's family are comforted by the kind regards and prayers, that have been sent to them from across the world.
I also know that Emma had researched throughly her conscience, and medical documentions, and spoken with several medical persons concerning her decision, as to what procedures she was willing to accept. yet the media make it sound as if she just 'ticked 'a form!!!
I know that over the next few weeks, the true picture will come to light, however, I dought that they will print that on the front page..
regards viv

I hope you have now made a full recoverey from your traumatic surgery best wishes to you

Dear all

Some excellent points made by Athena and Vivienne below. I might just add that when I finally got my surgery which looked like it wasn't ever going to go ahead - this wasn't emergency surgery or for something life threatening it was for reconstruction following a mastectomy which had totally devastated me.

I had consultations with the anaesthetist as I said in an earlier post on this thread and even he, the decision maker in intra-operative blood transfusion management said that he would NEVER accept a blood transfusion whilst on the operating table and would make legal notation of that fact. Blood is not the 'cure all'. Yes it has saved many lives without a doubt but as has been stated already so has all the alternatives therapies and bloodless managememnt just as death has resulted from both therapies.

I send my best wishes to the family of Emma on their loss and hope that the family, friends and congregation close to her immediate family can help them cope with their loss.

Lyn x

Well said, Vivienne! How true your points are.

Janine - well, you've got to give them 10/10 for effort LOL. You wouldn't want them to be accused by God of not doing their job properly - and that is all they are doing, after all - God's little workers out in the field, sowing seeds of truth.

Yes, I know, some JWs are so excited to pass on their scriptural knowledge that they can come across as a bit too eager and over-zealous but they mean no harm or offence by it. It's like this - imagine you had discovered a cure for some terrible disease but the cure is something that sounds quite unconventional to society, something unheard of before - still, you would want to get the word out there to let people know about this wonderful cure, wouldn't you, even if people began calling you mad? That's kind of how JWs feel with the knowledge they have learned from the bible about the future prospects for mankind.

To any JWs that might be reading this, this is something to bear in mind when you are going door to door - it's good to be zealous but remember "moderation in all things". If you give a seed too much water in one go it will only end up water-logged and fail to grow.

Regards - Athena

Organised religion sux

The consultant could not garantee that a transfusion of blood would have saved Emma, She had agreed to certain other treatments though!!!

When people leave instructions not to be 'shocked' back to life, when in hospital.
When people decide, if, they do not want treatment for their cancer,
When people decide to smoke themselves to death.
When people decide to drug themselves up ( I attended a 22 yr olds funeral last week who had pumped heroin into his veins!!)
When people decide to drink themselves to liver failure.
When people take up arms to kill others, either legally or not..
When we can accept women aborting babies b'cuz they are the wrong sex..or some accident.........
When young people are killing themselves at the rate of 70+ each week due to crashes in high powered cars.(in this country alone)
When people are dying through senseless risky sports, (ie bungie jumping etc)
We all say its freedom....................

All of these things, people worldwide seem to accept every day, yet when they hear of one of Jehovah's witness'es dying for their belief, they cannot grasp the bigger picture.
Her death effects no-one but her family and friends.
Pumping a pint of blood into your veins is not a miracle cure for everything. if you look up the incidence of deaths due to blood miss-management they out- number by far, the amount of people who die of refusing blood...........whether witnesses or not.............

i never answer the door to the jws as they never stop talking,i even had 1 post a book through the door after i said no and had shut the door

Hi all,

Could I just add a point here regarding Gillian's comment above.

If the mother had agreed to a transfusion and by some chance remained alive to see her children grow up - those children (assuming they were still brought up as JWs), upon learning about how their mother accepted a blood transfusion, would no doubt feel quite sad and dismayed that their mother did not stand by God's word!

Regardless of what the Press say, it was not simply a case of standing by principles. It was a case of standing by God's word and knowing with all her heart that His word is truth and not wanting to make a stand against Him or any of His biblical laws.

If my own mother had accepted the blood transfusion at the time she was at death's door (after giving birth to my sister), I would have been extremely shocked to learn of this.

It's a bit like Adam and Eve and eating from the forbidden tree. They knew it was wrong but they were fooled into doing it - and once done there was no going back for them. They felt nothing but shame afterwards.

My 19yr old daughter is not a JW, although she knows a little about the beliefs - but recently when she was in labour with complications she was telling me and the midwife that under no circumstances did she want blood! Her reasons were based on a mixture of things - personal choice (she thinks the idea of having someone else's blood in her is disgusting and doesn't want to chance catching anything nasty) - plus she is obviously aware of the scriptural reasons (although, like I said already, she is not a JW). Thankfully, although it was touch and go for a while, both my daughter and baby were fine.

I think it's awful the way the Press have handled this current case. What I would like to know is why they don't ever make a huge issue over the death of someone who has died because they accepted a blood transfusion - and there are many cases of this happening every year. Why do they not hound the families of those lost ones, saying they should not have allowed the transfusion to be given?

Well, I think there will always be a differing of views regarding the blood issue - who's right, who's wrong etc - but if nothing else, I hope that some of the explanations from a few of us on here with some knowledge about the beliefs of JWs might have aided some of you to see the bigger picture and why that young girl made such a faithful decision, even if you may not agree with the belief yourselves.

As for the children she has left behind - like many children in single parent families, they will grow up with the love of their dad and grandparents and other relatives - plus all their "brothers & sisters" at the congretation - their lives will by no means be loveless. And who knows - maybe at some future point in time their father may marry again. When they are older I am sure they will understand and not even question the decision their mother took. They will know how much she loved them but, more importantly, they will know how much she loved Jehovah God.

Best wishes and thanks to the majority of posters who have kept this thread amicable and non-offensive. Much respect - Athena

I think you will all find, that what has been reported in the daily papers, and by supposed 'close friends', and the truth of what really led to the sad death of Emma will be somewhat different. So perhaps before you pass an opinion why dont you wait untill you hear what all the facts really are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Notice the silence coming from the hospital..........................There is always two sides to any event...

It was said that she was standing by her principles- its a pity she didn't stand by her children!

Gyl

In one of the papers i read the father had no say as the mother had signed herself to say she would not have any blood, Valxxx

This has been a very interesting and thoughtful thread. Despite the very emotive subject it is still being discussed (well mostly) politely.

I think what really bothers me about any organised religion with such set beliefs is the idea that at some point a committee probably sat down and decided on which documents to include in a Holy writ and on how it was going to be interpreted. Certainly the early Christian church did precisely that at various times when doctrines and creeds were being sorted out.

Now I don't know about you but I've sat on a few committees in my time and to get any sort of decision made takes compromise or sometimes one powerful individual may sway things how they want.

I've held heated debates with fundamentalists of various persuasions on a variety of topics. These usually involve me being told I'm damned for not being able to accept their particular version of Christianity as a package. It's strange how each one is the "right" version.

We can argue the pros and cons of blood transfusion indefinitely and I know that scientists are working on blood substitutes, though that is mainly because of the great need for donations and it would be easier for everyone if artificial blood were freely available.

What is a fact in this particular case is that a young woman (not much more than a child herself and still easily impressionable), died when her life would probably have been saved by a simple procedure. Blood products are very carefully screened and the odds on any transfusion doing her any damage whatsoever would have been very remote........and certainly 100% better than the odds she faced not being transfused.

Heroism would have been giving a life to save a child, not depriving a child of the mother it needs.

I think the God I believe in expects each of us to account for our actions. I also think we are expected to use our common sense and our responsibilty to care for our children is paramount.

Sue

Sue

I can't answer for the JWs in your area but I know that while I was heavily involved I felt it was a duty to go and to talk to people about the promises for the future of mankind especially in this world with all the horrible things that go on in it.

Dressing up like they were going to a ball - perhaps they were! I had to hang up my ball gown when I stopped going and put all my glittering jewellery away. Just kidding. :) lol. I do know that I always wanted to look my best it's a bit like Sunday best only becuase JWs have three meetings a week, you would probably see them dressed up each of those meetings, better that than going scruffy with tatty clothes on don't you think? I hope you don't get bothered too much remember Sue, God loves a tryer!

Lyn x

Lyn
I live opposite the Kingdom Hall in my town and I get them round every week it really annoys me that they can just come knocking at my door to try and get me to join them. I am 57 and I am too old to walk the streets.LOL How would they like it if I went round to their houses and started to preach to them.
I try and be polite but it still dosnt work I dread the high heels clicking on my slabs.
Why is it also that the ladies all try and outdo everyone when they attend their meetings they all get dolled up !! as though they are going to some ball !

This is a fascinating thread...I've read it all through.

But,sorry,I find it incomprehensible that a young woman's life is over in this manner.
She should be proudly showing off her new babies to friends and family.She had so much to look forward to.

It's incredibly sad...Her husband must have been asked at some point to allow a transfusion when she was so desperately ill,and he said no....

What an awful situation...You wonder,in their intense grief,if they will question their decision...

Terribly sad...Those poor babies never knowing their mummy.

Sandra.
xxx

Sorry Sue, The Jehovahs Witnesses know that Jesus was not born on the 25th of December and that may be why they still go round the doors on that day, there are a lot of people in other religions who also know this but chose to disregard it, I am only expressing my opinion and must stress that i cannot explain too much as i am not a J/W and it would be wrong to give wrong information but the christmas day thing is all twaddle, It is a day that a lot of people go along with because it suits, It is not fact, dont get me wrong it does look comforting and warm and cosy when you see all the lights,decorations, snow themes,etc and i would be lying to myself if i said otherwise

Sue

Witnesses believe that they need to take the 'truth' about the promises for the future that Jesus laid down while he was on earth - essentially an end to wickedness, death and mans determination to destroy man and realise a paradise world ruled by righteous people. They follow the very same missionary style that Jesus did. He didn't wait for the people to come to him rather going to the people as did his disciples.

As I said before, I still count myself a JW despite not attending for personal not doctorinal reasons and I have in the past called round on people. Bear in mind, you never know who or what religion you are going to meet when you knock at a door and I can assure you it is not the easiest thing in the world to do quite the opposite that is the depth of their convictions.

If you get a JW who isn't going to take no for an answer that is to do with their own personality and nothing to do with how they are 'taught' to speak to people at their door. For me, once somebody expressed that they didn't want to discuss religion etc and that they were happy with their own religion, I would not push the issue further, a polite no thank you was enough for me and it made a difficult job a lot easier to carry out.

Hope this is helpful.

Lyn x

Like I said Linda, I do respect other people's religions, even though I am not particularly religious myself.

I have to agree with you Sue, they should not go around knocking on peoples doors.

I work with the elderly and we had one lady who was a JW, but insisted on having her Christmas dinner with the other residents. She spoiled the day for the others by refusing to pull a Christmas cracker with one of the other lady's.

Lyn
Why do they come knocking on our doors.
I am church of England and I do not go round knocking on peoples doors.
I had them round last Christmas day....do they not understand our beliefs.....